You have a devoted owner who wants to do whatever they can to help their dog find a job. You know this owner is pretty good about managing their dog’s aggression per others that know the owner.
Flyball has rules about aggression. Putting an aggressive dog on lanes could be a liability to the club, owner of the dog and to the dog. A dog like this could start or participate in fight. A dog like this could freak out for no apparent reason.
Do you give this owner and dog a chance? Do you speak it over with the club and see what they want to do and are willing?
Do you just find a polite way to tell the owner that flyball is not a sport for them at this time?
Aggression is not something to be taken lightly.
Kim
16 comments ↓
I think that if there is a past history of agression for this particular dog. Then no. The dog should not play the game. It is, I believe, a decent person who tells you this from the start. If however you notice this behavior through training -it is you roler to be the responcible one and say this sport is not for them.
As spoken about on other posts, there are children, spectators , not to mention judges, handlers, and the hundreds of dogs at each tournament. An agressive dog with these added factors….
I honestly don’t know why would anyone consider chancing the possible agression issue for the sake of running a dog in flyball? Why?
I love flyball, and have always loved and had dogs ( and animals of all kinds) but part of being a good owner is being responcible. This includes not to putting your dog in a situation that would be a detriment to others or himself.
There are many jobs out there that a dog can do, that involve fewer factors that this person with the aggressive dog could consider. Schutzhund, the obvious one comes to mind. Agility, obedience,weight pulling, or frisbee, would be better than flyball because the situation involves fewer elements in a more controlled environment. Even herding, yes a dog could kill or injure a duck or sheep but you sign a contract before you begin herding lessons agreeing to replacement. The person who owns the herd of sheep goes into this knowing this is a possiblity and the owner of the agressive dog would have to pay to replace the sheep. That would be sad too, however more so if it were a human or another persons flyballdog and family member.
If a dog without agression issues crosses the lane in flyball, it can do very serious harm to another dog by mere unintended collision. I’d hate to see what could happen if an agressive dog crossed… Please incourage this person to do something other than flyball….it’s fantastic that this dog has found someone to love him, but if they really care they need to do the right thing for him and not put him or others at risk.
Said dog (in this post) is somewhat ficticious in nature… but as a club we have had aggressive dogs in training before and some have overcome their aggression in flyball only and others were asked to leave. I myself had a dog aggressive dog. Of course at her first full tourney she was attacked in the crating area by a golden and subsequently seemed to have a “kick me” sign on her since she was attacked 4 other times outside of flyball in 4 yrs. It got to the point I did not take her out since she became aggressive herself, for reason, but many dogs seemed to attack her for no known reason to us. In flyball my dog could run without aggression. We picked her up and carried her in and out of the lanes. She was euthanized when she was only 4.5 yrs for cancer though.
One of our “prerequisites” for new dogs coming in to learn flyball is that they have to be friendly with other dogs. We just don’t want to take the chance.
But, with that said, we do have one dog that runs on our team that must be raced last because her only issue is that if another dog runs after her, she will turn around and go after them to keep them from getting another (“her”) ball. Otherwise, she has no problems if running in last position. In that case, it’s a situational issue and otherwise she’s not a problem around other dogs in normal circumstances. We just make sure that her handler has hold of her if we have to do any reruns. We will take issues like this one into consideration, but if the dog has problems just being in close proximitiy with other dogs in general, we won’t take them on for training.
Beth
I suppose we need to define agression. How do you differentiate, there’s drive (which is what we all want), ball agression, dog agression, situational, and human agression. And then there are agressive dogs -to which I thought we were speaking.
Clubs must decide what degree is acceptable for them and thier club’s capabilities to effectively train a dog with issues like these.I’m sure there are clubs out there that have experts.
Perhaps the question is: Where do we draw the line between intenstity that is good and encouraged in a flyball dog, and intensity that is potentially dangerous.
We have a “dog aggressive” dog on our team. he continues to run flyball (and is highly titled) because flyball is the one time at which he is NOT aggressive. walking into the ring maybe, in the crating areas yes, but once he is on the field, flyball is his job and he will ignore all things in order to do it.
Now there are always going to be exceptions. would i take on a new dog who has sown some aggression in the past? maybe, i’d want to see what their handler is like and what their tirggers are.
We run a pit bull on our team. she has never ever agressed on another dog at flyball practice or competition, but if god forbid she crosses over (she is ball obsessed) she runs the risk of being labeled as “agressive” where as our border who does the same thing is “just being ball crazy”.
I think that the flyball world is a little too obsessed with “agressive” dogs, and i think it’s more than a little breed biased as well.
Just this past week my dopey lab crossed over to “hang out” with his new best friend who he had been making eyes at across the lane; he ran up next to her and slimed her shoulder. While there was nothing “agressive” about the incident (just dumbass lab-ness) the judge considered labeling it as agression. does that seem aggressive to you?
while I am not playing down the serious nature of truly agressive dogs in flyball I think that there is a ton of hyper-aware paranoid folks out there who are quick to label a dog or event as agression.
true agression can obviously not be tolerated. so where is the line? what “counts” as agression in flyball?
I think each case of aggression needs to be dealt with individually based upon the dog and the situations under which the dog becomes agressive. I’ve played on teams where there have been dogs that have had issues with specific other dogs, certain breeds, only small dogs, only big dogs, etc. I wouldn’t say any of these dogs should be banned from the sport – in fact 1 of them has his flyball grand champion title. It just depends upon the individual dog.
My own dog is a super-soft nonconfrontational dog 99% of the time. He does however, have an issue with GSD’s and will suddenly go Alpha dog should a GSD come anywhere near him or his space. I am aware of this behavoir and make a conscious effort to keep him out of these situations. If the team in the opposing lane has a GSD, I pull my dog from the race all together. It isn’t worth risking a possible reaction in my opinion.
For the purpose of classes we prescreen potential new members. We ask them about thier dog (breed, disposition, experience in other sports, how they are with other dogs, etc.) to get a feel for what we may be dealing with. While the new dogs are allowed to be in the building (on leash of course) when the seasoned dogs are working – we only do off leash work with green dogs alone and with no other dogs around until we get to know the dog a little better. Then we slowly introduce other dogs to the new dog as we see fit.
I have yet to work with a dog who couldn’t be taught to ‘play nice’ with the rest of the group. Yes, there are the dogs that must run start or anchor or they will chase, etc. and the dogs that can’t run head to head with a small dog or big dog – but again, you can work through most of these issues. The responsibility is really on the handlers to know what trigger’s may set their dog off and remove their dog from stressful situations whenever possible. And for the people in denial who think their dog is perfect… then the responsibility falls on the rest of the team to step in when the see a potential confrontation approaching.
I’m sure there are some dogs out there that may truly be dangerous, but I would hope that their owner’s realize this and make the appropriate ‘sport’ choices for their dog.
So I admit my club has a very reactive dog in training. This dog has been in training for over a year now. It has taken that long for the dog to get over his fear of the box. We took precautions and only had the dog in the building alone for the longest time. After almost a year he finally decided the box was not going to kill him and we started adding dogs in the building. Then we added a dog with speed to the other lane (my dog was designated guinea pig). Reactive dog went for my dog was corrected and never did it again. yes we had gating up and such but the runback area was free game since folks are not as fast as a border collie. We are now to the point that the reactive dog can have dogs in the other lane with no gating PLUS taking passes that are early without even flinching.
The reactive dog will be in tourney warmups in a couple weeks. We are planning to make sure he has a way in and out of the building with “bodyguards” so that he does not get the chance to be an idiot. Chances are my husband will most likely carry the dog into the building while the owner tries to keep calm.
Yes we are taking a huge chance with this dog but sometimes I think a dog needs to be given a chance. Plus, the owner has been working with him. He has a huge personal space birth (10 ft usually) or he wants to attack but so far while in the lanes, he just wants to run and is actually racing the other dog.
I do think it is a group decision on whether to attempt working with a dog that has reactive or aggressive issues. People who know this dog – been at the same training building for a long time – can’t believe he can pass a dog without issue and actually gives way. I also think you need to know the dog and the owner when making the decision. We were asked to give the dog and owner a chance by another team member and so far it has worked out.
The owner is so beside herself with happiness. Her dog did compete in SDR a month ago and was awesome.
We are just on guard with this dog… I am not saying all aggressive/reactive dogs should be given a chance but I do think they need to be evaluated and not just shunned unless you do not want to take the time to work with said dogs. No one can fault you if you chose not to work with said dogs though.
Kim,
I would not carry the dog, nor try to calm the dog..that is just feeding into his insecurity – which is what a reactive dog is all about.
My first “real” flyball dog- Mugsey – was highly dog aggressive. He was super ball motivated, and did not pay any attention to any other dog, but, if a dog came into his space, he attacked without warning. And he attacked hard and fast. Now, it was never his fault, as it was the other loose dog running up to him, and he was on a leash.
This is what I did – and it could work for your dog since he is so focused. I started watching him, close. I could see the minute before he was going to snap. So, I would correct before he had a chance. And by correct, a quick pop with a flat collar on. I would have all sorts of dogs approach, I would give him a chance, and the minute I saw his body language change, I corrected. It got to the point that when dogs approached, Mugsey would look at me, or look away from the other dogs. I did this for a few months, I was diligent about it. He never went after another dog after that. (and he was never a dog to cross over on another…and was so focused on his ball/tug – that should a dog chase him down, he came to me for the tug).
If your Reactive dog likes to tug, why not tug into the racing lanes, or have a ball in hand and keep the dog focused on you, rather than carry or calm – which will make it worse. You want to change the behavior not coddle it. I know people that have dogs with issues, and as long as the dog has a ball in the mouth, no issues.
Jackie – I am not the owner of the reactive dog. The owner is a full believer in positive reinforcement and avoiding the triggers (does not give many corrections at all). I have been working with her in the flyball environment that positive is not always the right way. She goes to a training school that only uses positive – she also has done reactive dog classes with this dog. Like I said earlier my husband gave the dog a stern correction for chasing my borderjack and the dog has never done it again – I think more appropriate corrections would help the dog over desensitizing and avoiding. Of course I have in many ways set up reactive dog so that we can correct instead of ignore. It has definitely helped.
The reactive dog and owner have tried tugging, food, ball etc… while coming in the building when other dogs are there. If a dog is within 10 ft he acts out almost every time. He is much better than he was and we work it in practice and hoping he will translate into a tourney situation.
At times I think the owner is more of a problem. She is a wonderful person and manages the dog quite well most of the time but I don’t think she is tough enough at times.
Yes I do think all dogs need to be considered as individuals on the lanes…
Great advice Jackie! An owner should know how to pick up the ‘signs’ when their dog gets uncomfortable with a situation, etc. Most dogs give ‘warning signs’ – posture, ear position, stiffness, etc. With my own dog I either correct the behavoir BEFORE he reacts or I simply redirect his attention to something else when in a stressful situation.
Kim, it also sounds as if the owner of this dog may be putting nervous energy out there which her dog will surely pick up on. Has she done any formal obedience training with the dog? I was able to work out most of my dog’s issues with a really good obedience trainer. My dog even passed the CGC test with a GSD in the same class and having to do face to face greetings with the GSD and he too would avert his attention from that dog and turn his head and stare at me. It may be something to suggest to help her ‘learn’ her dog a little better and to help calm her while working with her dog.
I think as a club you have done a great job and have obviously put in some serious time with this dog and I think that’s great! People who know this dog are telling you they are amazed at his progress which says a lot for you guys.
I run a dog aggressive dog in Flyball. He is also, happily, ball obsessed, which helps. Outside of Flyball, he has his friends and all others beware. He has to wear a muzzle to visit the dog park.
I am VERY careful with him at a tournament. He is NOT allowed to go visiting other dogs he does not know, this means even walking by them on a semi-loose leash. If others approach, we walk away. He loves people, so I spend a lot of time either next to my teammates (only with those dogs on the team he likes) or around a group of people only.
In the lane, though, I am in a constant state of alertness and can panic in a blink. I worked very hard to train my dog to drop his ball and freeze whenever another dog approaches his vicinity. Along with being dog aggressive, he is also ball/food aggressive. And, for the longest time, he had to run last. Now, I have him running second in the lineup followed by his “girlfriend.” He understands his “girlfriend” doesn’t want his ball and has learned to pass her with it without harm. Because she is non-reactive, he also feels no need to confront her. We practiced this lineup many, many times during practices to make sure it was SAFE.
As for him crossing over, luckily, though ball obsessed, my dog has no great love to chase down a dropped ball. He’s figured out that if he just comes back, he’ll get to try again. And, for other dogs crossing over, this is when I panic. It has, blessedly, only happened twice. The first time, the instant I saw the other dog leave his lane, I yelled at mine to drop his ball and freeze. God bless him, he did. I, however, did not. I immediately ran right down the lane (to the irritation of the judge) and grabbed my dog’s collar before anything else could happen. Meanwhile, praising him for following commands beautifully. He was so happy, he couldn’t stop wagging his entire body. For my sake, I was having a mini-heartattack. The other dog, by the way, was just chasing his own ball and didn’t even glance at my dog. But, that circumstance gave me the courage to keep running my dog. He listened to my commands and did exactly as I had trained him in that circumstance.
The second time a dog crossed, it did not end as well. The day before, I had watched this interfering dog cross ten times in the runback area. It was a labradoodle and clearly was still very puppyish, very excited, and definitely not lane-sure. When I had to run against them on the second day, I was already wary. Both dogs were running last. They went down fine, and since mine was faster, came back over the start line without problem. However, once the interfering dog finished the race, he immediately made a bee-line for my dog. I had already dropped his reward (a ball of food) and my dog was coming in for it. Within seconds, I had grabbed my dog’s collar and yanked his head up to my chest as the other dog jumped mine. Mine began growling and thrashing – who wouldn’t – but I kept hold of him and yelled for help. The other dog’s owner came over, grabbed his dog off and said, “he wants to play so much!” I almost called him something else, but held myself in check. The judge, thank god, however saw what happened and warned the other team that if that dog ever looked at the other lane again, he was going to write him up. Thankfully, the other team pulled the dog. However, my dog also didn’t run again that day. He was already too juiced to be safe.
I feel that as long as the owner and team understand the nature of the dog aggressive dog and said dog has been overly proofed against ANY kind of occassion and has an owner that can be trusted and pro-active, dog agressive dogs can play.
It is a risk though, not only for the agressive dog, but also everyone else.
By the way, my current team has 7 reactive dogs running on it. And, we’ve only had 1 (before my time) ever get called on for aggression in the lane (and in her case, it was nothing more than her attempt at escape through an open door across another lane – miunderstanding…) We are all very careful with our dogs and don’t hesitate to chase them down in the lane if anything appears to might happen.
Allright, after much thought on this and seeing other sides, I have been swayed somewhat by the excellect examples of handler/dog situations given above. This being said, the liability is still the owner’s responsibilty (and the Clubs?) as I understand it. The risk must be taken seriously.
It seems these particular people who have posted are very aware and have shown their responsibility to their dogs teamates and others through their actions both in practices and tournament situations. I’m very happy that’s the case. It takes someone very in tune with there animal and someone who takes this risk extreemely seriously. Bravo to you all.
I do know that there are clubs that I’ve personally encountered who can deal with these agression issues too. But sadly, I also know there are clubs who THINK they’ve got it … and well, they don’t.
The question is in the end – who’s responsible for pointing this out? – the judge? other clubs? – God. what a nightmare that would cause… who tells them they’re not qualified to handle it before it goes too far? “he wants to play” could ruin things as much,if not more, as “aggresive dog”.
We all know the end result:
Agressive dog would be pegged as the catalyst, and “he wants to play” was just having a good time when out of nowhere….yadda yadda yadda.
We all know there are “levels” of flyball involvement for the handlers as well as the dogs that range from intense (bordering on professional flyballers) to “he wants to play”.
Perhaps this is where the emphasis should be made in an agressive dog question – less on the dog and more the handler’s abilty.
Just a thought.
I think these commenters are too quick to place the cause on “the reactive dog” and not enough emphasis is being placed on the dog owner’s responsibility to both “read” and train their dog.
There is an excellent article available on the web titled “He Just Wants to Say ‘Hi!’ ” If you read it it, you will learn what is actually happening from the dog’s point of view when a so-called “reactive dog” is confronted with another dog’s rudeness. Rudeness in dog terms, that is.
I understand that some people are not comfortable with bringing to the the attention of others their “responsibilities” in both dog training and competing in dog sports. Dog aggression can happen in any situation where strange dogs have the potential to come into contact with each other. It doesn’t matter if it is flyball, agility, disc dog, AKC Obedience or just the local dog park. If you observe a dog’s behavior that appears to be “reactive” or another dog whose owner is allowing it to be rude to other dogs, you have a civic duty to bring it to the owner’s attention and try to educate them.
MOST people will thank you because most often, they do not understand what is happening and don’t know how to correct it. If you take the initiative and present yourself as trying to be helpful, most people will not be offended.
You can find the article I’m referring to here:
http://www.flyingdogpress.com/sayhi.html
Bruce
my dog has often been crossed on by the ‘just wanting to play’ dogs. luckily it’s never turned out bad, but my question is this… if my dog is doing her job in her own lane, and a ‘wanting to play’ dog crosses on her, she may react, probably not but she might. is that my/her fault? I would personally consider it the crossing dog’s fault because it’s my lane, and they are the interfering one. I would expect that the judge would reprimand the offending crosser, not my dog, however I don’t know exactly how it would be handled. how do the rules handle this?
on another note, I’ve seen ‘just wanting to play’ dogs repeatedly cross lanes in tournament, and have seen the handlers/teams just keep sending the dogs. I assume there is a point when a judge steps in and says to team/handler ‘it’s time to pull that dog, come back when he/she knows how to play the game’. if the judge doesn’t say anything, how do teams in the other lane protect themselves from crossing dogs?
Well the dog on the team with reactive issues managed to run great this weekend and earned almost 400 points running part time. I was so proud of him and his owner. We did have to pull him going into the 3rd heat of the last race because I was not quick enough to keep him focused on me so we pulled him real quick and ran my toy poodle. I think the owner may have been crying after he completed his first 2 heats. We pulled him just because we did not want to overdo it the first race and I had the owner just take him back to his crate and when we got back she was sniffling. It was a great weekend for a dog that 90% of the people wrote off as too aggressive.
I don’t know any clubs that don’t have some dogs that are at least somewhat agressive. I think it’s really impossible to think you could hold a tournament and not have aggressive dogs there.
I have a reactive dog that plays flyball. He runs fast and clean and has never had an issue in the lanes. I would never consider retiring him just because he has issues elsewhere.
I am very careful with him at tournaments and practice and everywhere else. He’s never had an issue at a tournament because I don’t allow him to go visiting and I don’t allow other dogs to visit with him. I figure it’s a working environment for him. There’s no reason he needs to socialize there anymore than a Guide dog needs to socialize when he is on duty.
Responsible dog owners ought to know well enough to ask before allowing their dog to approach another dog – especially in a tournament type environment. As long as a dog isn’t having issues during racing and the owner is responsible about keeping their dog away from others – I see no issues with having reactive dogs play flyball.
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