Comments on: Box Judge Controversy http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/ i-Flyball Thu, 08 Dec 2011 13:35:10 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Elizabeth http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-464 Elizabeth Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:46:25 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/#comment-464 IF clearly flagging the violation at the time of the violation COULD have changed the result of the race (win/lose) then the race should have been re-run. A flag is waved to communicate to a team that they have a violation and that they will need to re-run that dog to complete the race. In this case if Team A ran clean then even if Team B had received the visual flag notification, it would not have changed the outcome that Team A completed first. IF clearly flagging the violation at the time of the violation COULD have changed the result of the race (win/lose) then the race should have been re-run.

A flag is waved to communicate to a team that they have a violation and that they will need to re-run that dog to complete the race. In this case if Team A ran clean then even if Team B had received the visual flag notification, it would not have changed the outcome that Team A completed first.

]]> By: OldSheba http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-394 OldSheba Wed, 05 Sep 2007 01:18:05 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/#comment-394 this is why I really respect the job a judge has to do. These are difficult calls. this is why I really respect the job a judge has to do. These are difficult calls.

]]> By: Larry http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-349 Larry Fri, 31 Aug 2007 11:09:04 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/#comment-349 - Now the boxloader should be FLOGGED, with a slimy tug for such an error. NUDGING the box! Gee thanks! :) I really felt bad for such a stupid mistake. - Now the boxloader should be FLOGGED, with a slimy tug for such an error. NUDGING the box!

Gee thanks! :) I really felt bad for such a stupid mistake.

]]> By: Stuart http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-347 Stuart Fri, 31 Aug 2007 04:19:57 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/#comment-347 A missed call does not mean that it doesn't exist. The judge made an appropriate call for the situation. Had there been a flag in the other lane, then the issue of rerun as suggested by another poster would have come to question and then a rerun possible. But in this instance the judge made an appropriate call. If a mistake made by a judge, competitor, etc does not in the end affect the outcome of the heat, there is absolutely no reason to rerun it. A missed call does not mean that it doesn’t exist. The judge made an appropriate call for the situation.

Had there been a flag in the other lane, then the issue of rerun as suggested by another poster would have come to question and then a rerun possible. But in this instance the judge made an appropriate call.

If a mistake made by a judge, competitor, etc does not in the end affect the outcome of the heat, there is absolutely no reason to rerun it.

]]> By: mcjayne http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-345 mcjayne Fri, 31 Aug 2007 02:59:59 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/#comment-345 We've had many good/lucky/bad calls. I always figure if we get a bad call it'll balance out with a lucky call where nobody notices a mistake, or a good call where the judge makes a very fair decision. At least the judge verified that the box judge was asleep at the wheel with the flag & that they did see it. Mostly we are too laid back about flyball to really want to fight about it. Hey as long as we all live to race another day. I've seen other instances where the judge checks with the box/line judge & the judge has no idea what happened or why it was not legal etc. Now the boxloader should be FLOGGED, with a slimy tug for such an error. NUDGING the box! We’ve had many good/lucky/bad calls. I always figure if we get a bad call it’ll balance out with a lucky call where nobody notices a mistake, or a good call where the judge makes a very fair decision. At least the judge verified that the box judge was asleep at the wheel with the flag & that they did see it. Mostly we are too laid back about flyball to really want to fight about it. Hey as long as we all live to race another day.
I’ve seen other instances where the judge checks with the box/line judge & the judge has no idea what happened or why it was not legal etc.
Now the boxloader should be FLOGGED, with a slimy tug for such an error. NUDGING the box!

]]> By: peter ness http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-343 peter ness Fri, 31 Aug 2007 01:35:19 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/#comment-343 Fortunately, the other team, didn't flag. Then you would have the issue of reruns to contend with in this situation. Reminds me of the worst call I've ever seen. We were running in a 4/4 situation, and in contention for 1st place in Div 2. We ran a personal best for our club in the last heat of the day. the other team flagged on their first pass and held their dogs, so they didn't finish the heat. Fifteen minutes after the heat, with both teams back at their crating area, the TD and judge asked me where one of our team members was . I was captain, but since he was apprentice judging, I guess they thought he was. Anyways, the judge asked if "Joe"(made up name") had dropped a ball at the line during the heat and the ball had rolled over the start/finish line. He said he may have since his dog comes back to a ball. The judge then said he had to call it, and awarded the heat to the other team. This was wrong on so many levels I had to laugh when I was told. We weren't given a flag at the time, and so couldn't rerun even though we should have been entitled to. The other team never finished the heat. The rules allow handlers to cross the line to retrieve stray balls so I'm not sure a stray ball should be flagged, and making the call 15 minutes after a heat was ridiculous. In any event, we won our division, and as far as we were concerned, that was our personal best time, at least until the next tournament. Fortunately, the other team, didn’t flag. Then you would have the issue of reruns to contend with in this situation.
Reminds me of the worst call I’ve ever seen.
We were running in a 4/4 situation, and in contention for 1st place in Div 2. We ran a personal best for our club in the last heat of the day. the other team flagged on their first pass and held their dogs, so they didn’t finish the heat.
Fifteen minutes after the heat, with both teams back at their crating area, the TD and judge asked me where one of our team members was . I was captain, but since he was apprentice judging, I guess they thought he was.
Anyways, the judge asked if “Joe”(made up name”) had dropped a ball at the line during the heat and the ball had rolled over the start/finish line. He said he may have since his dog comes back to a ball.
The judge then said he had to call it, and awarded the heat to the other team.
This was wrong on so many levels I had to laugh when I was told. We weren’t given a flag at the time, and so couldn’t rerun even though we should have been entitled to. The other team never finished the heat. The rules allow handlers to cross the line to retrieve stray balls so I’m not sure a stray ball should be flagged, and making the call 15 minutes after a heat was ridiculous.
In any event, we won our division, and as far as we were concerned, that was our personal best time, at least until the next tournament.

]]> By: yorkies http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-331 yorkies Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:46:24 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/#comment-331 This is how I feel about it. IT IS an "Oops!" on the box and head judge part that it wasn't called but as it was pointed out, they are only human. It was brought to the judge's attention immediately to be corrected. The fault did occur. The dog had to re-run as stated in the rulebook. It's not a "maybe it occurred". If it was a "maybe", I can see the judge re-running the heat. Now, if the error was called, would team B been able to beat team A? Probably not. If team B had saw the fault, would they re-run? Maybe, maybe not but probably still would not have won against team A especially if team A didn't make an error. Team B could not have won because they had to re-run a dog. Would re-running the heat help? Don't know. It could of given them the win? Maybe. But winning heat #3 would of also given them the win too. (Honestly, I think heat 3 was the "key" race not heat 2.) In the long run. What can you say? It could of played out many ways. But things happens. That's life. Plus, I think team B would not have wanted the win because it was not legitimate. This is how I feel about it. IT IS an “Oops!” on the box and head judge part that it wasn’t called but as it was pointed out, they are only human. It was brought to the judge’s attention immediately to be corrected.

The fault did occur. The dog had to re-run as stated in the rulebook. It’s not a “maybe it occurred”. If it was a “maybe”, I can see the judge re-running the heat.

Now, if the error was called, would team B been able to beat team A? Probably not. If team B had saw the fault, would they re-run? Maybe, maybe not but probably still would not have won against team A especially if team A didn’t make an error. Team B could not have won because they had to re-run a dog.

Would re-running the heat help? Don’t know. It could of given them the win? Maybe. But winning heat #3 would of also given them the win too. (Honestly, I think heat 3 was the “key” race not heat 2.)

In the long run. What can you say? It could of played out many ways. But things happens. That’s life.

Plus, I think team B would not have wanted the win because it was not legitimate.

]]> By: bcollie http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-330 bcollie Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:05:31 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/#comment-330 sounds like a case of box judge fatigue. I've seen some pretty horrible box judges, but it's easy to get bored and zone out when you've been sitting there for hours watching the dogs go down and back ...down and back. I think the judge made the right call, but I'm all in favor of teams agreeing to limit the amt of time someone has to box judge. Since I only run one dog this delightful task often falls on me, and novice judges training requires 25 consecutive races . . . oh the boredom. sounds like a case of box judge fatigue. I’ve seen some pretty horrible box judges, but it’s easy to get bored and zone out when you’ve been sitting there for hours watching the dogs go down and back …down and back. I think the judge made the right call, but I’m all in favor of teams agreeing to limit the amt of time someone has to box judge. Since I only run one dog this delightful task often falls on me, and novice judges training requires 25 consecutive races . . . oh the boredom.

]]> By: eli http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-329 eli Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:14:31 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/#comment-329 U-FLI rulebook, 2.7 Heats "The dog must trigger the flyball box before retrieving the ball ejected from the box and must return over each jump,...". I feel that in this scenario, the dog did not complete this step - obviously no fault of his own. The judge should have conferred with the box judge and the boxloader. As to the boxloader not raising a flag - there is no formal education or qualification requirement for this position. While it is a quite tedious task, there are those moments when split second decisions are called for. The other team noticed the infraction and correctly brought it to the head judges attention. The heat should have been deemed "No Finish" after the fact and recorded as such. While this response is argued from "technicalese", do remember that this sport involves people and animals. I feel for you, Larry, having been the reason for the tough break. We do the best we can. As to the One versus Two, there are boxes that have small holes for small balls, should the owning team feel it critical to the outcome of their season. U-FLI rulebook, 2.7 Heats “The dog
must trigger the flyball box before retrieving the ball ejected from the box and must return over each
jump,…”.
I feel that in this scenario, the dog did not complete this step – obviously no fault of his own.
The judge should have conferred with the box judge and the boxloader.
As to the boxloader not raising a flag – there is no formal education or qualification requirement for this position. While it is a quite tedious task, there are those moments when split second decisions are called for.
The other team noticed the infraction and correctly brought it to the head judges attention.
The heat should have been deemed “No Finish” after the fact and recorded as such.
While this response is argued from “technicalese”, do remember that this sport involves people and animals.
I feel for you, Larry, having been the reason for the tough break. We do the best we can.
As to the One versus Two, there are boxes that have small holes for small balls, should the owning team feel it critical to the outcome of their season.

]]> By: Larry http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-327 Larry Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:37:57 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/box-judge-controversy/#comment-327 None of the team members saw what happen. They all thought that they had won the heat. Like I said it happened very fast and the dog did his box turn and returned with the ball. None of the team members saw what happen. They all thought that they had won the heat. Like I said it happened very fast and the dog did his box turn and returned with the ball.

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