Have you seen the latest Height Card Challenge Rule and Forms from NAFA? What a bureaucratic nightmare. Three complete pages and two forms all talking about Height Cards and Challenging, why am I not surprised by this? Because that’s what happens when you have a questionable or subjective rule - you leave yourself open for it and you need more rules to regulate it. Just read my other post about measuring and why the NAFA method is antiquated or maybe a better word to describe it, obsolete.
They have created this whole bureaucracy for an obsolete measuring method. The built in animosity factor for this has to be off the charts, and all of this for a dog sport that is supposed to be “FUN.” It says in Section 7.1 (d), “A height card is not subject to challenge except as provided below:” and then it goes into 5 long sub-paragraphs of how it can be challenged.
When you look at the challenge review process, it gets even better; six paragraphs and multiple sub-paragraphs covering a page and a half. The owner of the dog being challenged has x number of days to respond to the challenge and has to submit a video containing a judge measuring the dog. The funniest part of the video requirements is that the judge measuring the dog has to list the height to the nearest 1/16 of an inch. After the committee receives the video, there is a whole other process that covers actions by the Board of Directors, the Executive Director, and Judge’s Committee. All for one height card that may not be worth the paper it’s printed on or reprinted on whatever the case may be.
If you had a Club Owner from a competing team that didn’t like you and they had a $100 (cost of a challenge) they could make your life hell at least two times a year (maximum number of times a Club Owner can make a challenge per year).
I guess the worse part about all of this is that there has to be a rule for it. Let us all pray that NAFA sees the light soon and moves to a better measuring method.
Larry
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25 comments ↓
Wow Larry, you don’t hold back.
The fact that they have such a rule is
basically an admission that the process
is flawed. It’s all a distraction from the
true spirit of the sport. I will never own
a NAFA height dog because I don’t want
to go through all that nonsense.
Duh, how could NAFA be wrong. How dare you suggest there is a better way! You must be tarred & feathered!
I have 2 height dogs, we’ll 3 if you count my 11 yr old that has a 17″ height card & did run as a height dog years ago. I don’t measure them anymore, we got consistent measurements, I’m sure I can get that if we are challenged & so we just stopped. I’m not getting them a height card. And apparently so did the rest of our region b/c hardly anyone is measuring, much less getting ht cards. Judges in training have to have the RD beg folks to come up & measure.
This new rule just reinforces how useless measuring in NAFA is, even if you go to ALL the trouble of getting a height card, someone can challenge it. It also says that the 3-5 judges who measured your dog were wrong, not to mention all the other judges you had to measure under. So one might, just might, think that points to a failure on the part of the system. Nah…
I know that I went on a rant about this and I want to say that I really like NAFA. Most of all my dogs’ points in flyball have been earned in NAFA tournaments. However, how long has this whole measuring and now challenge thing need to go on? It’s starting to border on the absurd. Just admit it, “this ain’t workin“ and fix it.
I sympathize with the frustration that some people must feel over the Measuring issue. However, understanding the history leading up to this, I seriously doubt that the Association’s delegates wil vote to make any changes either in the Rules covering the measuring process or the Rules concerning Height Cards. The answer is not simply changing how NAFA does things. You have to get a 2/3’s majority to vote for it.
Obviously, if no one talks about it nothing will change.
……ahhhhhhh but, Larry. Things HAVE changed. We now have U-FLI which has revolutionized the measuring process. No one needs to use the NAFA system anymore.
What I am trying to point out but, you seem to be unwilling to accept is that BOTH methods of measuring have their place. BOTH are GOOD!
If the majority of NAFA delegates are happy with the system that NAFA has in place, why can’t you accept that and be happy with it? Happy for the people who embrace it and want to use it.
No one ever has to measure in NAFA. Measuring is an option, a “choice”. This past weekend in Sandusky, out of 36 teams entered, only TWO felt the need to have their height dog measured. (Two individual dogs) I was one of the two who measured and the only reason I did was because I had only estimated her jump height based on her standing next to dogs who had been measured. ….but, if I had NOT measured, I am certain it would have made no difference at all.
It just seems this thread is like making a mountain out of mole hill. Participants in NAFA do know the system is subjective. That doesn’t make it “inferior” or “bad”.
You ought to be asking and learning why the majority feel that way instead of trying to convince them how they are wrong.
If NAFA’s method is so good then why the new challenge policy? That says to me that there are problems……that maybe their present method needs changes.
measuring has always been the most stressful part of flyball for me, and I’ve got a height dog who always measures low, but it’s just the whole process is so subjective. I just don’t do it anymore - if someone wants to challenge my dog they can, and if she won’t measure the correct height (it’s never happened), we will just have to forfeit. until there are more Ufli tournaments in my region it’s just a sad fact of life tha we have to race NAFA. not that I don’t appreciate NAFA, but as far as measuring goes, Ufli has definitely found a better way.
Chris – How can both NAFA and U-FLI methods be good when everyone measures in U-FLI and no one measures in NAFA? How can it be good for the sport that NAFA has created an atmosphere where no one measures? I am trying figure out why the majority feel that this is okay and that is the reason for the post. I haven’t heard one comment as to why anyone thinks the NAFA method is good. That’s because everyone knows that it’s not yet there is no discussion or willingness to change it. I think a lot of this has to do with stubborn pride.
How can both NAFA and U-FLI methods be good when everyone measures in U-FLI and no one measures in NAFA?
First, they are both good because that is what a truly open and unbiased perspective sees. There are TWO sides to the measuring question. Not “right” and “wrong” sides. Just DIFFERENT sides.
Everyone measures in U-FLI because the Rules say you have to. There is no choice in U-FLI about whether or not to measure your dog if 1) you want to jump lower than their maximum jump height of 12″ and 2) you do not have any other dogs on your U-FLI team that have already measured to jump lower than 12″.
No one measures in NAFA because there is NO NEED! It has never been required from day one. You can look at your dog, estimate their jump height as I have done for several tournaments, “declare” what your jump height is and move on! How can an atmosphere of such trust and goodwill among competitors so that no one needs to measure and no one needs to challenge be “bad”? I can’t tell you how relaxed and carefree this weekend was for me, even though I chose to measure. Looking around at my competitors, I’d say they were relaxed and had a good time, too.
You haven’t heard “one comment as to why anyone thinks the NAFA method is good” because the people who would say that simply don’t post. Maybe, they don’t feel it is safe to say that they like the NAFA method for whatever reason that they do because so many U-FLI promoters jump on them whenever they say that.
How can you accuse anyone of “stubborn pride” when you haven’t heard their side?
So essentially with the new NAFA challenge rule if you’re willing to pay $100 to make NAFA follow their own rules you get justice. As a racer in a region with several height dogs involed in a measuring fiasco I think it’s absurd that all dogs involved were not immediatly required to re-measure. Oddly enough every team but the one who had cheated on measuring agreed to re-measure. I guess I just don’t understand why people have to cheat at flyball . . . it’s not like you win money and everyone you race against knows you’re cheating. I love the U-fli measuring system our club is strongly considering switching to U-fli if NAFA doesn’t get it together.
Chris, I’m envious of your Utopian world where Flyball
is all about trust and goodwill and everyone can jump
whatever height they say they should jump.
Too bad more places aren’t like your world.
But you are right, you do not have to measure your
height dog. The rest of the story is that if you do not
measure, you can be challenged, unless you have
a height card. This creates a world of “haves” and
“have nots” (people with and without height cards).
This is where the new NAFA challenge rule comes
in place. As with any subjective system, interpretation
of the rule varies over time. Height cards obtained in
one era may no longer be in line with current standards.
You should be able to challenge a height card.
Remember a few years ago when the big clamor was
to allow people to obtain a second height card.
The dogs didn’t shrink, but people knew they could
get lower measurement. Now the interpretation has
become more strict.
My main problem with the ruling is that it is not
timely. If you have $100 and want to challenge
a height card, you should be able to do it at a
tournament. The dog should be measured right
there at that tournament, with all judges present,
and it should be videotaped in front of everyone.
Chris - How can you accuse anyone of “stubborn pride” when you haven’t heard their side?
Easy - I call them like it see them. I can’t help it if you can’t believe there is a better way. Talk about “stubborn pride.” If the shoe fits….
Chris – I’m sorry about my last comment. I don’t want this to be personal and I really don’t know why I’m even arguing with you because it’s a no win situation. You see things one way and I see them differently. I’m not going to change you’re mind and you aren’t going to change mine. We just have to agree to disagree.
Under NAFA, even if you measure your dog, your jump height CAN be challenged. It’s up to the Head Judge whether or not your dog will be required to go under the wicket.
As to “haves” and “have nots”, I don’t understand. You have to apply to get a Height Card. They aren’t just handed out.
So, I guess it comes down to this “fear” of your height dog being challenged. If you know your dog’s jump height either by being measured or good estimating, why are you concerned about being challenged? A jump height “challenge” only comes into play if a team in your division believes you are jumping lower than you should be, correct? Again, what are your concerns about your jump height being challenged? Are they realistic concerns? Are there teams out there who would challenge your jump height just because NAFA’s Rules gives them the “right” to challenge it? Would such a team likely “prevail” with a frivolous challenge?
The reason it looks like I’m playing in some kind of “Flyball Utopia” is that nobody is trying to push the limits of what they can “get away with” when it comes to jump heights. The teams involved in controversy no longer enter NAFA tournaments. They are happy they are doing U-FLI. I’m happy for them. No one enjoyed going to tournaments only to witness the worst in some people’s behaviors.
Now there is U-FLI and everybody gets what they want in either NAFA or U-FLI. Everybody should be happy. …but, they’re not. Why can’t U-FLI be what it is to those who want it AND NAFA be what it is to those that want that? Why can’t both organizations have a peaceful “co-existance” instead of “competing” interests?
That’s what I’d like to know.
Well, having witnessed first hand the impact of video taping, the stress it puts on the dog, the competitors and the overall atmosphere of the tournaments and region, the NAFA system is seriously FLAWED. PLUS, the removal of judges, suspension of teams, and removal of height cards. It, to me, shows NAFA’s clear lack of faith in its measuring procedure and it’s APPROVED judges. Basically, now the “judging” goes into someone elses hands; and I don’t think those hands are unbias. I would rather they send it out to all team captians and ALL judges not the BoD appointed judging committe, ED and CoB.
So, now we have persons, if they choose, “policing” measuring. They can make life very difficult if they want to get back at someone, or their old team.?
What is the point?
Larry,
Apology accepted.
I don’t think of this as personal at all.
I’m not trying to change anybody’s mind. My purpose to keep people thinking about what they say and keeping everything “logical”.
You are passionate about what you believe and that’s OK.
Like I said, I’m not trying to change ANYBODY’S mind. But, I don’t think some people really listen to the other side. They equate “listening” with agreement.
I’m glad you agree to disagree.
I can’t believe you just posted that Chris, “the teams surrounding the controversy are playing U-fli!’ That is just a very mean spirited statement. I can tell you there are a WHOLE lotta people that would call into question Spring Loaded jump heights, or don’t you recall that they could not get one of their height dogs to get it’s HC measurment (after two days of racing) when being done for the world record? Not to mention one of their BorderStaffies was on another team, and that team knows how tall it is, and it is not what it has a HC for.
There is still alot of questions about alot of different dogs, you may not have heard about it, but I sure have! Or maybe you didn’t hear about how long measuring took in Ontario a month back?
For the record, I don’t care how you stand your dog, or what you are jumping, I never really pay attention.
WOW! Jackie! You don’t hold back either.
I didn’t say that to be mean. It’s just a statement of fact. They choose not to participate in NAFA events.
Yes, there are a lotta people who post public inuendo about Spring Loaded’s jump heights. Now, they have a method to challenge them for real. Will they?
And, yes, I recall their failure to get the measurement on their height dog after a world record run. So, all that happened was they DIDN’T get the world record for that. Big Deal. Their jump height was not challenged. It was a verification for a world record. They still kept all their placements and regional points.
If YOU have a problem with the Height Cards that Spring Loaded has on their dogs then plunk your money down and challenge it according to the rules. If you are right and the challenge is upheld, you get your money back and they lose a height card. How much does it matter to you? And, why don’t you care how I am standing my dog or what I am jumping? What’s the difference?
I didn’t hear about how long measuring took in Ontario because I don’t play there anymore. I’m scared for my dogs of the Provincial Government and I won’t risk anything happening to them due to “mis-identification”.
….but, my point is that U-FLI should make you HAPPY and you do not post like a “happy person”. Why aren’t you happy enough to have U-FLI? Why isn’t having all the things you want to do in flyball available to you through U-FLI enough?
There is no point to having two organizations if you are trying to make one like the other. This thread started because the author of this article totally disagrees with the policy the NAFA BoD has adopted to address the issues some people have over Height Cards that were issued prior to the Rules concerning measuring were made more restrictive. The Board struggled with this problem for over three years. If they had not come up with a solution, the people who were pressuring the Board to do something would have been totally disatisfied with that outcome.
The real problem with NAFA is that it is a democracy and in a democracy, there is always a “minority” view. The majority dictates the direction that organization takes and quite often that is opposite of the minority. You can NEVER please everybody in a democracy.
What would be better would be to find a way that both sides could co-exist peacefully. How do we make that happen?
I’ve been following all this jump height business on the chat list and on here and can’t believe so much fuss is being made about measuring!!! It isn’t rocket science to measure a dog. In the UK we have to measure dogs for flyball, agility, Clever Dogs and breed showing etc, and I’ve never once heard any argument/debate/heated politics about it. I’ve had to have all my dogs measured over the years for different dog disciplines. I “show stand” my dog (definitely NOT rocket science to teach a dog to do this), slide over the “measuring arches” and voila!
A dog in the UK (BFA) is required to be measured for flyball for the first time at 18 months when it starts competing, then twice more later. When the height is measured the form is signed by judges. What IS everyones problem???
It just sounds like politics to me which, in any dog sports shouldn’t be allowed to interfere.
JMVHO
Well Chris, I think most persons that meet would say I am happy. Now you are personally attacking me, cause I thought what you wrote was horrible. Flyball makes me happy - regardless of what venue.
I don’t race against SL, and what would be the point since SL has the CoB and a whole lot of others “on thier side.” Nor, do I care, my point is, there ARE persons out there that do care, are not allowed a certain stance when another team is. It is still happening, maybe you just don’t see it, but I hear about it.
“The reason it looks like I’m playing in some kind of “Flyball Utopia” is that nobody is trying to push the limits of what they can “get away with” when it comes to jump heights. The teams involved in controversy no longer enter NAFA tournaments. They are happy they are doing U-FLI. I’m happy for them. No one enjoyed going to tournaments only to witness the worst in some people’s behaviors”
Then, if no one currently is trying to push the envelop, why is this rule necessary?
I can only guess what team, judge will be next on the chopping block.
I have no problem with the two organizations, happy to have choice.
Back to my misrable, unhappy world.
Chris,
You say that everyone in NAFA is happy with measuring. When was the last time you were at a tournament outside of your area? How many areas have you been to tournaments at and been able to talk with people face to face regarding measuring? Internet communication is fine but nothing beats face to face conversations. You might be surprised at what you find out. There must be a problem otherwise why would the BOD change the policy on height cards for a few unhappy people?
I believe that whether a democracy or privately owned you are going to have unhappy people. It is a fact of life that you can’t make everyone happy.
Chris, in your 2nd post you say that,”If the majority of NAFA delegates are happy with the system NAFA has in place why can’t you accept that at be happy with it?’ and then conclude, “You ought to be asking and learning why the majority feel that way instead of trying to convince them they are wrong”.
Strange, but as a delegate, I don’t remember ever being asked if I was happy with the system, and I’m curious as to how you get to decide what the majority wants. I can assure you that in region 12, every delegate I’ve talked to feels there are problems with measuring and the height card system, and anyone I’ve talked to in our region about the new challenge system think it’s a joke.
With respect to your comment that “The teams involved in controversy no longer enter NAFA tournaments.”, what a dumb thing to say. I think you’d find that a lot of the people you mention are running in both leagues. Jackie has already mentioned the Spring Loaded issue, but what about Scott Stein being disciplined for a bad measurement caught on tape, or rumours that NETB wouldn’t go to Cynosports if height cards weren’t allowed? I guess a lot depends on one’s connections. In my opinion, the problem is that there’s a widely held perception that there are a number of illegitimate height cards out there, and that situation won’t change soon.
As for just putting the money up to challenge a height card, I know people who were planning to until they read how the challenge works. Requiring the challenged team to provide evidence their card is bogus is, well, bogus.
I, for one, would prefer a measuring system similar ( but not identical to) the UFLI system.
Disclaimer
I’ve met Scott and respect him. I’m just trying to illustrate the fact that there is a perception that the measuring system has major problems and anecdotes keep popping up supporting that view.
>..as a delegate, I don’t remember ever being asked if I was happy with the system, and I’m curious as to how you get to decide what the majority wants.>I think you’d find that a lot of the people you mention are running in both leagues. >the problem is that there’s a widely held perception that there are a number of illegitimate height cards out there,…
Whether you personally are happy with the system or not pretty much depends on how you cast your vote. That is something only you know, Pete. Not I!
I DON’T get to decide what the majority wants and I don’t know how you conclude that in what I said. I only observe how elections are decided and the directions those elections take us. So far, those elections have supported the system.
I didn’t mention anyone’s name and I know you don’t know who I am referring to or why.
I don’t give “rumors” any thought at all. But, I do believe there are people who would rather spread rumors and complaints than settle an issue.
Perception is one thing. Reality is another. I can’t change your perceptions on anything. Only you can.
The reality is that I have my reasons for my opinions but, my observations are that a lot of people just want to shut down any view that is different from their own. They are totally insensitive to those who think differently.
You can’t learn anything if you only listen to those who agree with you.
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