I am not a dog breeder and I do not want the responsibility that goes along with it. I am a firm believer in spaying and neutering dogs. Just go to any shelter across the country and you can see why. I am also not a big fan of conformance breeding; just look at an AKC registered Labrador retriever or Border collie to know that breeding for looks is ruining many breeds. However, I will say that I think that the majority of these breeders do try to place their puppies in good homes. I have two JRTCA registered dogs and they are great dogs. Nevertheless, on the other side of this issue, you have people that have no idea what they are doing and just because they have a piece of paper from a breed organization, they think they are going to breed the next champion. I think that many of these people think there is money to be made by breeding, but unfortunately, many of these dogs can be found in shelters.
Responsible Dog Breeding
I recently read on a list I subscribe to that someone was looking for a Border collie as a stud dog even though they say, “I am not a breeder.” They went on to describe how great their dog is, but oh by the way, the dog is a carrier of CEA1. I just cannot agree with purposely breeding when you know one of the dogs is a carrier of a genetic disease and it is likely that 50% of the offspring will then be carriers. I know that people love their animals and would like another just like it but look at what you are doing to the overall breed.
We have a Labrador retriever with severe allergies and Hip Dysplasia and someone with a liter mate to our dog has bred his dog. His dog has the same problems but he bred the dog anyway because he said she was the best dog he has ever had. We feel the same way about our dog but that does not mean that we would ever breed her. She was spayed six months after we got her, but that is beside the point. Why would someone knowingly do this? I think it is just irresponsible.
Rescue Organizations
Rescue organizations are doing the best they can, but they cannot save them all. I rescued a Border collie last year from a kill shelter in Georgia only 30 minutes before he was due to be put down. I met the Border collie rescue person from that area in the parking lot and she told me how glad she was that I got him because she probably would not have gotten there in time. He was very sick from being heartworm positive and had respiratory and urinary infections. I know that all of these organizations need help and money because I spent well over $600 getting him well again. Please consider donating to a rescue origination in your area because I know that they need the help.
Designer Breeds
I know that designer breeds in flyball are becoming more prevalent all the time. Border/Jacks and Border/Staffies are probably the most desired and most bred. I really do not have a problem with this as long as the dogs from this type of breeding are being used for the purpose in which they were bred. I think in almost all cases these dogs are being utilized on flyball teams even if they may not be fast enough for some teams they usually find their way into good homes. The faster teams out there probably would not be as fast as they are without breeding these dogs. I think history shows that this has been going on for thousands of years. However, with all of this said, I hope that people that have little or no breeding experience stay out of it. On the other side of this issue, I have heard people say that they cannot condone the breeding of a mixed breed dog. I can sympathize with this feeling but at the same time, “skeletal remains indicate that five diverse types of dog existed in the Bronze Age (about 4500 BC) - mastiffs, wolf-type dogs, greyhounds, pointing dogs, and shepherding dogs…2.” Therefore, if this is true most dogs can be considered mixed breed.
Larry
Footnotes:
1. For more information on Collie Eye Anomaly (CEA), see the American Border Collie Association web site.
17 comments ↓
I bred Border Collies for almost 40 years. Both ISDS (International Sheep Dog Society) registered and later KC (UK) registered. Most of the dogs worked sheep (cos that is what they were bred for and I had my own flocks!) did sheep dog trials and those that didn’t either did agility, working trials or were pets (not often).
I also showed all my working dogs to prove that working dogs can have brains AND beauty.
Unfortunately Kennel Clubs around the world don’t have the best interests of dogs at heart, they take the money to register pups etc, and that’s it.
There is only one reason why dogs should be bred from, and that is to better the breed. Full stop! To know about dog genetics should be a “must.” Too many people think putting a champion to a champion will make the pups champions. Mistake.
By putting 2 breeds together is doubling up on the hereditary problems that the 2 breeds can be carrying or suffering from.
All “pedigree” dogs are “man made” (alas, and many breeds suffer because of mans desire to have dogs with flatter faces, smaller ears, longer backs etc) and have been created from various types of dogs and are thus technically mixed breeds.
Border Collie rescues are full to overflowing as are other rescues. Dog not fast enough for flyball? dump it and get another. Dog not good/fast enough for agility? dump it and get another. Dog not good enough for showing? dump it and get another, etc, etc
I’ve been rehoming/rescueing Collies for almost 50 years and I get sooooooooo angry with the excuses folks come up with to justify them getting rid of their dogs.
There are too many dogs because people keep breeding to make money. They have to advertise their pups when they should already have homes for them before they even consider the mating.
If a dog is an excellent sheep dog but is a carrier of CEA then I would use a carrier to a clear, test all the pups and advise owners of the pups of the carrier status. If every CEA carrier was eliminated from the gene pool, that would be throwing the baby out with the bath water and a lot of excellent dogs would be eliminated. The DNA test allows a good breeder to breed intelligently with the knowledge of what they are breeding with. CEA is rife in Collies the world over because the DNA test was only made possible in the past couple of years. I was the first person in the UK to DNA test all my dogs (all clear).
Sheep dogs have the shepherding gene (or usually have but some haven’t). There is no such thing as a flyball/agility/obedience/dog dancing gene. It is the “biddability” gene that is needed for dog sports. Some dogs have it, some don’t. Puppies from good flyball parents can’t be guaranteed to be good at flyball. Been there, done that and 2 of them are laying at my feet at the moment, but they are staying!
I’ve seen a few Border Jacks around the flyball rings and they aren’t faster than the other dogs. Why spoil 2 breeds (BCs and Staffies) by making mongrels of them?
JMVHO
(quote) I am also not a big fan of conformance breeding; just look at an AKC registered Labrador retriever or Border collie to know that breeding for looks is ruining many breeds. (un-quote)
Please, do not lump together Backyard Breeders with the dedicated show “Conformation” breeder.
I’ve bred dogs for the AKC show ring and there’s NO comparison between breeding for show and just breeding dogs because your dog has AKC papers. You can be a dog breeder AND still firmly believe in spaying and neutering dogs.
I have tried to “reason” with people who believe it is their “right” to breed even though they have no idea what it is that they’re doing or why. At least people who breed for show have a purpose and hopefully, some understanding of genetics.
The best thing we can do is “educate” the unknowing public. When I sold a puppy that was not show quality, I had my puppy buyer sign a spay/neuter contract. I also had them sign an agreement that if at any time during that pup’s life, they could not keep it for any reason, I was given the first opportunity to take the dog back.
I have taken back two dogs this way. Both had problem owners. The dogs were not the problem.
Good breeders vs bad breeders is a VERY serious issue and one that is too broad for just one blog article. Perhaps a series would be in order since you have touched upon several valid points.
I no longer breed dogs because playing flyball was far more personally satisfying than winning in the AKC Show ring. …but, I understand breeding dogs for conformation showing and I just want the people involved in that activity to be portrayed fairly.
“… I understand breeding dogs for conformation showing and I just want the people involved in that activity to be portrayed fairly.”
Like I said, I am not a dog breeder and I think I was fair in my assessment of conformation breeding. I did say that of the people that breed dogs this group does try to find good homes for the dogs that do not make the grade. However, there is much argument, which I am not going to debate here, about how many breeds are being ruined by conformation breeding. I will just point to one source and that is the American Border Collie Association. I would also like to quote from Chris Zink, DVM, PhD about fitness and conformation showing:
Thank you Chris and Valerie for you views and comments.
Dr. Zink has an excellent book called Peak Performance:Coaching the Canine Athlete.
Having bred, worked and shown (and judged conformation), you will find that judges rarely if ever put on their critiques that a dog is too thin, but often put on the critique that the dog is overweight, too “chunky” etc.
I’d rather see a dog 1kg underweight than 1kg overweight. Sleek dogs in hard condition move much better in the show ring if their conformation is correct than a dog carrying too much weight.
Chris Zinks statement…. “I have never understood why dogs whose breed standard states that they should be shown in “hard working condition” don’t win in the conformation ring unless they are FAT.”
…is not true. Dogs in hard working condition DO win in the show ring IF their conformation is correct. If a fat dog has correct, good conformation it is obvious that it would, and should win over a dog in hard working condition with incorrect and bad conformation.
Fat doesn’t change the conformation that is underneath the fat.
I’ve seen dogs with working weight be in hard condition with awful conformation and movement, and dogs carrying too much weight with excellent conformation.
Going over a dog is easier when it is the correct weight than when it is chunky, but movement tells all.
As for breeders mostly finding good homes for their dogs, you only have to look at how many pedigree dogs end up in specialised rescue and have to be put to sleep because there just isn’t enough room for them. Too many breeders don’t take their dogs back when the owners can’t or don’t want to keep them anymore, usually because they have another litter and they don’t have room. Not backyard breeders, so called reputable breeders.
I have respect for breeders who take back their own breeding at whatever age and go so far as to insist, usually with puppy contracts, that the dog MUST go back to its breeder if the owner no longer wants it, and select carefully which homes their puppies will go to and usually keep in touch with the new owners.
I agree with everything Valerie said except the last sentence:
“Why spoil 2 breeds (BCs and Staffies) by making mongrels of them?”
There are probably quite a few of us reading this that have the pleasure of owning a Border Staffy and I can guarantee that we do not consider them mongrels. We don’t consider them mutts. They are Hybrids. They have the good traits of the BC and of the Staffy, in just the right proportion. They certainly are beautiful creatures.
Valerie, I realize the Border Staffy probably hasn’t made it’s way to the UK, so I can understand where you are coming from. I just hope you have a chance some day to really get to know one.
And Larry, easy on the CEA. It is a fact of life that we all have to live with in the name of genetic diversity. You simply cannot eliminate it from the gene pool. You would not breed two Merles together either because some of the puppies might be blind. That doesn’t make Merles bad. Just be responsible.
Another thing to consider is that the breed must adapt to life in the 21st century. Flyball “breeders” are often criticized by breeders of Herding dogs for ruining the instincts of the Border Collie. Well, I don’t have any sheep, I don’t know anyone that owns sheep. I do know some places that I could pay to let my dogs see some sheep. We have seven (and a half) Border Collies and they all do Flyball. Breeds adapt. Most German Shepherds aren’t bred to protect herds from wolves. They adapted into many fields like police work and the breed is still alive as a result. Border Collies are an amazing breed and thankfully they are finding many new venues to prove their value. If herding was their only outlet, the breed would die out.
I know that you are all probably right about CEA. It just seems to me, as an outsider and not a breeder that non-breeders should not be breeding dogs that they know are carriers. I think dog breeding should be left to experienced dog breeders and I will just add one quote from the American Border Collie Association:
I guess I should also add that I have two Border Collies from one of the top herding breeders in the southeast. He knew what I wanted my dogs for and had no problem with it. I think he realizes that the breed can excel in many other venues other than herding. I have taken my dogs back to his farm on occasion to let them play with the sheep. It is amazing to watch their herding instincts in just a very short time when they encounter the sheep. My 1-year-old Border Collie even got to herd some sheep with his parents and it was really fun to watch.
I’m pretty much against dog breeding for conformation and think it should be based on ability. I was lucky enough to adopt someones throw away border collie who excels in disc, flyball, and herding. She’s an amazing dog and many people have asked if she’s fixed because they would like puppies. I don’t know where she came from, but obviously someone made a poor choice and didn’t even care enough to give her a chance. They just dumped her at the pound. I always wish I could find her old owners so they could see all the potential they were blind too.
That being said I do have a problem with some of the flyball breeding. People are breeding for size, speed, and all of the ocd qualities that make for a good flyball dog. Unfortunatly I’ve seen more than a few pups that don’t make the cut, and are manic brainless little dogs which when they don’t work out for flyball have no hope of having success in a normal home. If you breed expressly for the traits of a good flyball dog eventually you’ll end up with pretty psychotic dogs. My dog is a pet first and foremost. That’s her most important job.
I have been involved in some sort of dog sport for over 15 years. My 14 year old GSD has over 15 assorted titles from tracking to obedience to agility. When I first started, I had very strong convictions about everything. I would never breed a dog for a specific sport, nor would I ever re-home a dog that wasn’t working out. What I came to realize is that the problem with blindly judging a situation is that you don’t know all of the circumstances. Sometimes the best thing to do is breed a litter FOR flyball and place them with the team–can every team do this? No, but try not to judge others when you don’t know the situation. All breeds were developed for a purpose and I’m sure that dogs were culled while the breed was “formed”. Those culled dogs may have made great pets–who knows.
For the record, I have never bred a litter nor have I re-homed a dog, but I no longer think that people that do are horrible people. Sometimes the dogs really are better off some place else. And, sometimes, we get really great rescue dogs because someone felt they had to give them away (I also currently am owned by 2 rescue bcs who excel in flyball)
Valerie says
“Chris Zinks statement…. “I have never understood why dogs whose breed standard states that they should be shown in “hard working condition” don’t win in the conformation ring unless they are FAT.”
…is not true. Dogs in hard working condition DO win in the show ring IF their conformation is correct. If a fat dog has correct, good conformation it is obvious that it would, and should win over a dog in hard working condition with incorrect and bad conformation.”
Valerie, maybe not in the UK. However, in the U.S. there are many breeds that will not make it in the show ring unless they are fat–Labradors being the number one breed that comes to mind. I also have a friend whose Golden Retriever is about to take some time off from flyball to go in the show ring and the dog is going to have to put on 8-10 pounds to do so. I do see some breeds, Malinois come to mind immediately, that do look lean and hard in the show ring. Unfortunately, they are the exception in the U.S.
Chris, I’m not sure what breed you’ve shown in conformation (I don’t think that ALL breeds have suffered as much as some), but I think what Larry is referring to when he says “breeding for looks” does not necessarily mean for correct conformation, but rather what is considered the “type” that conformation judges are putting up at the moment. I have Goldens and Border Collies and what I see happening to BCs in the show ring is exactly what has happened to Goldens: more head, more bone, more coat (let’s not even go there with what’s happend to show Labs). I had to ask recently if a particular BC that I saw in the show ring was really a BC and to my amazement found out that he was one of the top dogs in the country. Just take a look at what some breed champions looked like 30 years ago compared to today. “Types” come in and out of fashion without much regard by many breeders as to what the purpose of the breed truly is. Now I do know folks who breed for the complete package - I have a friend who breeds CH, MH, OTCH, MACH Goldens, but she is the rare one. I just wish that in order to have a breed CH, the dogs must pass some kind of working test for their breed. I believe they do this in many European countries.
Beth, I think you hit it right on the nose! The so-called Border Collies that I have seen in the conformation ring have no resemblance to any working Border Collies that I have seen. Other than being a stereotypical black and white dog the resemblance ends right there. They are bigger boned, have larger heads and noses, overweight fluffy dogs. The judges are doing this just like with some of the other breeds and it does not have anything to do with the conformation standards. If you read the standard, it does not say anything about big boned overweight fluffy dogs. It even states,
(quote)“breeding for looks” does not necessarily mean for correct conformation, but rather what is considered the “type” that conformation judges are putting up at the moment.(unquote)
Well, I agree with that statement. ….but, the problem is NOT the breeders. The problem and responsibility rests solely with the Judges. Conformation showing is a “subjective” sport. Winning rests entirely on the Judges opinion. Supposedly, the “breed standard” is an objective word description of what the ideal specimen of a breed should look like and includes the traits that are supposed to be most importantly found in a working specimen.
…..but, NO dog ever fits perfectly it’s “breed standard”. Breeders rely on the Judges opinion. Whatever that “opinion” is, that’s what breeders will breed. They want to “win”, after all. ….but, winning is in the hands of the judges, etc., etc.
That’s why I quit breeding dogs and just play flyball. The most objective value in flyball is the stopwatch.
Hey, isn’t this supposed to be a blog about flyball? Why are we talking about conformation showing & breeding, anyway?
Breeders breed dogs. Dogs play flyball; but really, it started me thinking when I read on our regional flyball list that someone was looking for a stud dog and the dog was a CEA carrier.
Discussing breeding and showing is relevant to flyball indirectly as a lot of flyball dogs are conformation dogs or dogs that haven’t been shown due to their mismarkings etc, (my flyball dogs used to be shown and (brag, brag) they are all qualified for life for Crufts and have even won out of very large classes at Crufts. We just happen to prefer flyball with a bit of agility when there aren’t any tournaments, or Clever Dogs (obstacle course mixture of agility and flyball).
Stopwatch? Our main aim is to have fun. We go in to win, but if we don’t win we’ve got points, and if we don’t get points we’ve had a super day out socialising with like minded folks and dogs.
I feel so sorry for the people who, if they don’t come first or don’t get a rosette or points, beat their chests and have a miserable day.
I, and I think most people, go into flyball to share having fun doing things with their dogs. Win or lose, we still take the best dogs home!!!
I agree Chris, judges need to be more educated on the breeds they are judging, but I know of breeders who will breed for whatever the judges are putting up and therein lies the fault with the breeder. One year a while back at the BC Nationals, the “show” folks were up in arms because the judges (who had some herding background) were putting up working dogs. Thank goodness we still have a reasonable number of folks who do produce nice dogs that are concerned with the whole picture. We just need more folks with working dogs with decent conformation to put their dogs in the ring. Golden people have been saying it for years, but because of how it has become, people with nicely built working dogs don’t want to waste their time. I’m certainly one of them. Oh well, we digress. Interesting topic, for sure and one that I wish a few folks that I know would come on and read.
[...] I am not a dog breeder and I do not want the responsibility that goes along with it. I am a firm believer in spaying and neutering dogs. Just go to any shelter across the country and you can see why. … by Larry at 4:56 AM [...]
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