Comments on: Dog Breeding http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/ i-Flyball Thu, 08 Dec 2011 13:35:10 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Robbie http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-1534 Robbie Wed, 21 Jul 2010 21:33:22 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/#comment-1534 Woohoo Chris, the discussion is heating up! I must admit that we trail the Europeans in purity of breeds. We learned a lot from our loved Beauceron, Sunshine Rain. I haven't been to France to compete with her but have followed the breed, and there are some interesting differences in the way they judge the dog. Ears can be cropped or natural, there is no penalty for either, as it is inconsequential. Dogs may have scars or bleached coats. This simply is the result of a true working dog, not genetics. Performance is a key component, not just appearance, and I've heard judges have much leeway in rewarding dogs that are exceptional in a particular area. Since it's a rare breed, they have an easy avenue for unregistered dogs to enter into the registry. This promotes genetic diversity. At the same time, they require that all dogs have double dew claws on the rear legs. This has nothing to do with performance, its about tradition. Apparently double dew claws were considered lucky hundreds of years ago, and those lucky dogs were bred, until it became a trademark of the breed. These are a few examples from one particular breed whose registry is at work to keep the breed alive and true to it's heritage. Woohoo Chris, the discussion is heating up!

I must admit that we trail the Europeans in purity of breeds. We learned a lot from our loved Beauceron, Sunshine Rain. I haven’t been to France to compete with her but have followed the breed, and there are some interesting differences in the way they judge the dog. Ears can be cropped or natural, there is no penalty for either, as it is inconsequential. Dogs may have scars or bleached coats. This simply is the result of a true working dog, not genetics. Performance is a key component, not just appearance, and I’ve heard judges have much leeway in rewarding dogs that are exceptional in a particular area. Since it’s a rare breed, they have an easy avenue for unregistered dogs to enter into the registry. This promotes genetic diversity. At the same time, they require that all dogs have double dew claws on the rear legs. This has nothing to do with performance, its about tradition. Apparently double dew claws were considered lucky hundreds of years ago, and those lucky dogs were bred, until it became a trademark of the breed. These are a few examples from one particular breed whose registry is at work to keep the breed alive and true to it’s heritage.

]]> By: Chris http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-1533 Chris Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:41:15 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/#comment-1533 >Most breeders in the United States are breeding for profit and not for sport.Many professional handlers work in cohoots with established breeders to sabotage the dog...to enable the dogs of the breeders to gain points for their inferior dogs by ruining a dog’s coat by burning both the coat and skin of the dog.The American conformation ring is compromised. The Americans must institute strict regulation like the Germans and the French to prevent inferior dogs from entering the conformation ring and winning. . Anyone attempting to breed the inferior specimens should be severely fined and have their dogs taken away to be neutered and spayed by the ASPCA.“No big government” is just another cop-out by the American people to accept responsibility .Tattooing of dogs must become mandatory for all those who breed dogs. Those, who do not comply...should be severely penalized.< WOW...this is a blog about flyball. You've made some serious accusations against people you do not know without any evidence. It is all your opinion. You sound Anti-American. Advocating taking people's dogs away from them is an intrusion on our culture and very disrespectful. I'm glad you support the German, French, Russian & EU way of doing things. Those tactics just won't work here. We believe in : 1) Education 2) Freedom of choice. Think about that before you indict the American way of doing things. ....and try playing flyball and learn to have fun with your dog. >Most breeders in the United States are breeding for profit and not for sport.Many professional handlers work in cohoots with established breeders to sabotage the dog…to enable the dogs of the breeders to gain points for their inferior dogs by ruining a dog’s coat by burning both the coat and skin of the dog.The American conformation ring is compromised. The Americans must institute strict regulation like the Germans and the French to prevent inferior dogs from entering the conformation ring and winning. . Anyone attempting to breed the inferior specimens should be severely fined and have their dogs taken away to be neutered and spayed by the ASPCA.“No big government” is just another cop-out by the American people to accept responsibility .Tattooing of dogs must become mandatory for all those who breed dogs. Those, who do not comply…should be severely penalized.<

WOW…this is a blog about flyball.

You've made some serious accusations against people you do not know without any evidence. It is all your opinion.
You sound Anti-American. Advocating taking people's dogs away from them is an intrusion on our culture and very disrespectful.

I'm glad you support the German, French, Russian & EU way of doing things. Those tactics just won't work here. We believe in :
1) Education
2) Freedom of choice.

Think about that before you indict the American way of doing things.
….and try playing flyball and learn to have fun with your dog.

]]> By: Renee Bouvier http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-1528 Renee Bouvier Sun, 02 May 2010 04:38:05 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/#comment-1528 Most breeders in the United States are breeding for profit and not for sport. The conformation German shepherd dog is an extremely undersized dog with an accentuated sloping back, and hence, the expression of "banana-back cripples." These American-bred conformation shepherds are, in fact, crippled. These dogs actually turn and lean on their hocks like a person walking on his or her elbows and forearms. All of the owners and breeders of the old-fashioned German shepherd dog no longer compete in the conformation ring in the United States. Instead these owners and trainers of the old-fashioned, healthy, correctly constructed German shepherd dog compete abroad in Europe, specifically in countries like Germany and France. The Bouvier des Flandres dog is another example of a breed ruined by the Americans with dogs suffering from horrific autoimmune conditions, thyroid disease, and glaucoma. Many of these Bouvier breeders will hire prestigious AKC handlers to quickly finish these dogs as champions before any disease pathology becomes apparant. Even after these so-called "finished" champion dogs show severe signs of disease like having both eyes surgically removed due to glaucoma, these breeders will continue to breed these very sick dogs. Dog handlers are complicit in this scheme to finish sick dogs as champions by knowingly entering sick dogs into the AKC show ring. Many professional handlers work in cohoots with established breeders to sabotage the dog, which they are handling, to enable the dogs of the breeders to gain points for their inferior dogs by ruining a dog's coat by burning both the coat and skin of the dog. The American conformation ring is compromised. The Americans must institute strict regulation like the Germans and the French to prevent inferior dogs from entering the conformation ring and winning. The true test of a working and herding dog is whether they can perform in work competitions, such as Schutzhund. If a working/herding dog cannot achieve at least Schutzhund Level One, this dog should not become a conformation champion to be bred. Only the dogs, which can achieve at least Schutzhund Level One (this level does not include the protection requirements), should be allowed to proceed to become conformation champions and allowed to be bred by receiving a formal registration number for breeding. Any dogs not capable of performing the tasks at hand in addition to passing the various health exams and DNA tests should be prohibited from being bred. Anyone attempting to breed the inferior specimens should be severely fined and have their dogs taken away to be neutered and spayed by the ASPCA. All eligible dogs for breeding should be required to enroll in a fertility center at one of the leading university hospitals of veterinary medicine. If the above were to be enforced, millions-upon-millions of dogs' lives would be spared each year. Just like everything else in the United States, there is no oversight and accountability. In this case, there is literally a Holocaust of man's best friend. Just sit in the waiting room during a weekday of a university hospital facility to witness all of the severely infirm, purebred dogs in the United States. Those owners lacking the appropriate funds to cover the necessary veterinary expenses are forced to euthanize these sick animals. Both the Germans and the French in addition to the other countries of the EU have instituted extremely strict provisions and laws to prevent the very holocaust now transpiring in the United States. "No big government" is just another cop-out by the American people to accept responsibility for their indiscretions. When purebred puppies and dogs are found abandoned in farm fields, DNA testing should be performed to identify the breeder. Tattooing of dogs must become mandatory for all those, who breed dogs. Those, who do not comply with the mandatory tattooing law, should be severely penalized. All dogs in the EU and Russia are required to be tattooed. Most breeders in the United States are breeding for profit and not for sport. The conformation German shepherd dog is an extremely undersized dog with an accentuated sloping back, and hence, the expression of “banana-back cripples.” These American-bred conformation shepherds are, in fact, crippled. These dogs actually turn and lean on their hocks like a person walking on his or her elbows and forearms. All of the owners and breeders of the old-fashioned German shepherd dog no longer compete in the conformation ring in the United States. Instead these owners and trainers of the old-fashioned, healthy, correctly constructed German shepherd dog compete abroad in Europe, specifically in countries like Germany and France. The Bouvier des Flandres dog is another example of a breed ruined by the Americans with dogs suffering from horrific autoimmune conditions, thyroid disease, and glaucoma. Many of these Bouvier breeders will hire prestigious AKC handlers to quickly finish these dogs as champions before any disease pathology becomes apparant. Even after these so-called “finished” champion dogs show severe signs of disease like having both eyes surgically removed due to glaucoma, these breeders will continue to breed these very sick dogs. Dog handlers are complicit in this scheme to finish sick dogs as champions by knowingly entering sick dogs into the AKC show ring. Many professional handlers work in cohoots with established breeders to sabotage the dog, which they are handling, to enable the dogs of the breeders to gain points for their inferior dogs by ruining a dog’s coat by burning both the coat and skin of the dog. The American conformation ring is compromised. The Americans must institute strict regulation like the Germans and the French to prevent inferior dogs from entering the conformation ring and winning. The true test of a working and herding dog is whether they can perform in work competitions, such as Schutzhund. If a working/herding dog cannot achieve at least Schutzhund Level One, this dog should not become a conformation champion to be bred. Only the dogs, which can achieve at least Schutzhund Level One (this level does not include the protection requirements), should be allowed to proceed to become conformation champions and allowed to be bred by receiving a formal registration number for breeding. Any dogs not capable of performing the tasks at hand in addition to passing the various health exams and DNA tests should be prohibited from being bred. Anyone attempting to breed the inferior specimens should be severely fined and have their dogs taken away to be neutered and spayed by the ASPCA. All eligible dogs for breeding should be required to enroll in a fertility center at one of the leading university hospitals of veterinary medicine. If the above were to be enforced, millions-upon-millions of dogs’ lives would be spared each year. Just like everything else in the United States, there is no oversight and accountability. In this case, there is literally a Holocaust of man’s best friend. Just sit in the waiting room during a weekday of a university hospital facility to witness all of the severely infirm, purebred dogs in the United States. Those owners lacking the appropriate funds to cover the necessary veterinary expenses are forced to euthanize these sick animals. Both the Germans and the French in addition to the other countries of the EU have instituted extremely strict provisions and laws to prevent the very holocaust now transpiring in the United States. “No big government” is just another cop-out by the American people to accept responsibility for their indiscretions. When purebred puppies and dogs are found abandoned in farm fields, DNA testing should be performed to identify the breeder. Tattooing of dogs must become mandatory for all those, who breed dogs. Those, who do not comply with the mandatory tattooing law, should be severely penalized. All dogs in the EU and Russia are required to be tattooed.

]]> By: dog breeding - Dog Breeding http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-197 dog breeding - Dog Breeding Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:14:35 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/#comment-197 [...] I am not a dog breeder and I do not want the responsibility that goes along with it. I am a firm believer in spaying and neutering dogs. Just go to any shelter across the country and you can see why. ... by Larry at 4:56 AM [...] [...] I am not a dog breeder and I do not want the responsibility that goes along with it. I am a firm believer in spaying and neutering dogs. Just go to any shelter across the country and you can see why. … by Larry at 4:56 AM [...]

]]> By: Beth http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-169 Beth Wed, 15 Aug 2007 16:04:20 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/#comment-169 I agree Chris, judges need to be more educated on the breeds they are judging, but I know of breeders who will breed for whatever the judges are putting up and therein lies the fault with the breeder. One year a while back at the BC Nationals, the "show" folks were up in arms because the judges (who had some herding background) were putting up working dogs. Thank goodness we still have a reasonable number of folks who do produce nice dogs that are concerned with the whole picture. We just need more folks with working dogs with decent conformation to put their dogs in the ring. Golden people have been saying it for years, but because of how it has become, people with nicely built working dogs don't want to waste their time. I'm certainly one of them. Oh well, we digress. Interesting topic, for sure and one that I wish a few folks that I know would come on and read. I agree Chris, judges need to be more educated on the breeds they are judging, but I know of breeders who will breed for whatever the judges are putting up and therein lies the fault with the breeder. One year a while back at the BC Nationals, the “show” folks were up in arms because the judges (who had some herding background) were putting up working dogs. Thank goodness we still have a reasonable number of folks who do produce nice dogs that are concerned with the whole picture. We just need more folks with working dogs with decent conformation to put their dogs in the ring. Golden people have been saying it for years, but because of how it has become, people with nicely built working dogs don’t want to waste their time. I’m certainly one of them. Oh well, we digress. Interesting topic, for sure and one that I wish a few folks that I know would come on and read.

]]> By: Valerie http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-165 Valerie Wed, 15 Aug 2007 10:04:15 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/#comment-165 Discussing breeding and showing is relevant to flyball indirectly as a lot of flyball dogs are conformation dogs or dogs that haven't been shown due to their mismarkings etc, (my flyball dogs used to be shown and (brag, brag) they are all qualified for life for Crufts and have even won out of very large classes at Crufts. We just happen to prefer flyball with a bit of agility when there aren't any tournaments, or Clever Dogs (obstacle course mixture of agility and flyball). Stopwatch? Our main aim is to have fun. We go in to win, but if we don't win we've got points, and if we don't get points we've had a super day out socialising with like minded folks and dogs. I feel so sorry for the people who, if they don't come first or don't get a rosette or points, beat their chests and have a miserable day. I, and I think most people, go into flyball to share having fun doing things with their dogs. Win or lose, we still take the best dogs home!!! Discussing breeding and showing is relevant to flyball indirectly as a lot of flyball dogs are conformation dogs or dogs that haven’t been shown due to their mismarkings etc, (my flyball dogs used to be shown and (brag, brag) they are all qualified for life for Crufts and have even won out of very large classes at Crufts. We just happen to prefer flyball with a bit of agility when there aren’t any tournaments, or Clever Dogs (obstacle course mixture of agility and flyball).
Stopwatch? Our main aim is to have fun. We go in to win, but if we don’t win we’ve got points, and if we don’t get points we’ve had a super day out socialising with like minded folks and dogs.
I feel so sorry for the people who, if they don’t come first or don’t get a rosette or points, beat their chests and have a miserable day.
I, and I think most people, go into flyball to share having fun doing things with their dogs. Win or lose, we still take the best dogs home!!!

]]> By: Larry http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-163 Larry Wed, 15 Aug 2007 01:38:46 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/#comment-163 Breeders breed dogs. Dogs play flyball; but really, it started me thinking when I read on our regional flyball list that someone was looking for a stud dog and the dog was a CEA carrier. Breeders breed dogs. Dogs play flyball; but really, it started me thinking when I read on our regional flyball list that someone was looking for a stud dog and the dog was a CEA carrier.

]]> By: Chris http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-162 Chris Wed, 15 Aug 2007 01:26:48 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/#comment-162 (quote)“breeding for looks” does not necessarily mean for correct conformation, but rather what is considered the “type” that conformation judges are putting up at the moment.(unquote) Well, I agree with that statement. ....but, the problem is NOT the breeders. The problem and responsibility rests solely with the Judges. Conformation showing is a "subjective" sport. Winning rests entirely on the Judges opinion. Supposedly, the "breed standard" is an objective word description of what the ideal specimen of a breed should look like and includes the traits that are supposed to be most importantly found in a working specimen. .....but, NO dog ever fits perfectly it's "breed standard". Breeders rely on the Judges opinion. Whatever that "opinion" is, that's what breeders will breed. They want to "win", after all. ....but, winning is in the hands of the judges, etc., etc. That's why I quit breeding dogs and just play flyball. The most objective value in flyball is the stopwatch. Hey, isn't this supposed to be a blog about flyball? Why are we talking about conformation showing & breeding, anyway? (quote)“breeding for looks” does not necessarily mean for correct conformation, but rather what is considered the “type” that conformation judges are putting up at the moment.(unquote)

Well, I agree with that statement. ….but, the problem is NOT the breeders. The problem and responsibility rests solely with the Judges. Conformation showing is a “subjective” sport. Winning rests entirely on the Judges opinion. Supposedly, the “breed standard” is an objective word description of what the ideal specimen of a breed should look like and includes the traits that are supposed to be most importantly found in a working specimen.

…..but, NO dog ever fits perfectly it’s “breed standard”. Breeders rely on the Judges opinion. Whatever that “opinion” is, that’s what breeders will breed. They want to “win”, after all. ….but, winning is in the hands of the judges, etc., etc.

That’s why I quit breeding dogs and just play flyball. The most objective value in flyball is the stopwatch.
Hey, isn’t this supposed to be a blog about flyball? Why are we talking about conformation showing & breeding, anyway?

]]> By: Larry http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-161 Larry Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:18:10 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/#comment-161 Beth, I think you hit it right on the nose! The so-called Border Collies that I have seen in the conformation ring have no resemblance to any working Border Collies that I have seen. Other than being a stereotypical black and white dog the resemblance ends right there. They are bigger boned, have larger heads and noses, overweight fluffy dogs. The judges are doing this just like with some of the other breeds and it does not have anything to do with the conformation standards. If you read the standard, it does not say anything about big boned overweight fluffy dogs. It even states, <blockquote>“Bone must be strong, <strong>medium</strong> being correct but <strong>lighter bone is preferred over heavy</strong>. Overall balance between height, length, weight and bone is crucial and is more important than any absolute measurement. <strong>Dogs must be presented in hard working condition.</strong> <strong>Excess body weight is not to be mistaken for muscle or substance.</strong> Any single feature of size appearing out of proportion should be considered a fault.”</blockquote> Beth, I think you hit it right on the nose! The so-called Border Collies that I have seen in the conformation ring have no resemblance to any working Border Collies that I have seen. Other than being a stereotypical black and white dog the resemblance ends right there. They are bigger boned, have larger heads and noses, overweight fluffy dogs. The judges are doing this just like with some of the other breeds and it does not have anything to do with the conformation standards. If you read the standard, it does not say anything about big boned overweight fluffy dogs. It even states,
“Bone must be strong, medium being correct but lighter bone is preferred over heavy. Overall balance between height, length, weight and bone is crucial and is more important than any absolute measurement. Dogs must be presented in hard working condition. Excess body weight is not to be mistaken for muscle or substance. Any single feature of size appearing out of proportion should be considered a fault.”

]]> By: Beth http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/comment-page-1/#comment-160 Beth Tue, 14 Aug 2007 20:47:37 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/dog-breeding/#comment-160 Chris, I'm not sure what breed you've shown in conformation (I don't think that ALL breeds have suffered as much as some), but I think what Larry is referring to when he says "breeding for looks" does not necessarily mean for correct conformation, but rather what is considered the "type" that conformation judges are putting up at the moment. I have Goldens and Border Collies and what I see happening to BCs in the show ring is exactly what has happened to Goldens: more head, more bone, more coat (let's not even go there with what's happend to show Labs). I had to ask recently if a particular BC that I saw in the show ring was really a BC and to my amazement found out that he was one of the top dogs in the country. Just take a look at what some breed champions looked like 30 years ago compared to today. "Types" come in and out of fashion without much regard by many breeders as to what the purpose of the breed truly is. Now I do know folks who breed for the complete package - I have a friend who breeds CH, MH, OTCH, MACH Goldens, but she is the rare one. I just wish that in order to have a breed CH, the dogs must pass some kind of working test for their breed. I believe they do this in many European countries. Chris, I’m not sure what breed you’ve shown in conformation (I don’t think that ALL breeds have suffered as much as some), but I think what Larry is referring to when he says “breeding for looks” does not necessarily mean for correct conformation, but rather what is considered the “type” that conformation judges are putting up at the moment. I have Goldens and Border Collies and what I see happening to BCs in the show ring is exactly what has happened to Goldens: more head, more bone, more coat (let’s not even go there with what’s happend to show Labs). I had to ask recently if a particular BC that I saw in the show ring was really a BC and to my amazement found out that he was one of the top dogs in the country. Just take a look at what some breed champions looked like 30 years ago compared to today. “Types” come in and out of fashion without much regard by many breeders as to what the purpose of the breed truly is. Now I do know folks who breed for the complete package – I have a friend who breeds CH, MH, OTCH, MACH Goldens, but she is the rare one. I just wish that in order to have a breed CH, the dogs must pass some kind of working test for their breed. I believe they do this in many European countries.

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