Training a good box turn has always been the most difficult challenge for most Flyball trainers, and I am no exception. So when someone asked me about Wall training I was eager to learn what I could. Since I didn’t know that much about this training, I posted something on the i-Flyball Facebook page and quickly had a few comments:
I have two bcs, one trained with the ‘traditional’ method, props and the whole shebang, box turn lovely but slow and wide. The second one trained ‘on the wall’, quick, tight and snappy turns, hardly any props except for striding. Love the method, will never look back. ~ Gosia Skowron
… Properly done, a wall turn should result in a quick, efficient and snappy box turn without the “hang” or “pause” that you see some dogs do on the box. It is very difficult for a dog to “pause” on a vertical surface, so very early on they learn that they can’t do that. ~ Stephanie Minnella
So my interest in this method was instantly peaked. I went off and tried to find as much information as I could. I can’t thank Stephanie Minnella enough for providing me with much of the information you will read about this method. Additionally, if you search on YouTube you can find some pretty good videos of dogs performing this method. However, be careful because they may not be executing the method properly.
One of the best reasons for training this method came from Stephanie herself:
A lot of the point of teaching a wall turn is not necessarily to teach the dog to TURN off of the wall, but to teach the concept of their back feet having to leave the ground in order to pull it off. If you think about it, a lot of box turn “issues” that you see in dogs stem from the dog’s butt being too low on the box. The wall teaches them very early on that their back feet have to leave the ground and go UP onto something, which then carries over to the box.
Training the Wall
As with most box training, it is best to use this method as the “foundation before the dog moves to actually turning on the box.” I’ve said this before in one of my other training post, but it has been my experience that once the dog starts turning on a box it is very difficult to retrain a proper turn, and this training method is no exception.
With that said, I will explain this method even though I have not trained any of my dogs this way. I have a young dog that I’m going to start working with just to get some experience with this, but she is already running and was trained on the box using the prop method. She has a pretty good turn but it tends to get sloppy when she gets tired. As I explained in the previous paragraph, I’m not expecting any great improvements in her turn but it will help me and I don’t think it will hurt her to learn it.
As with most dog training, the clicker is your best friend so you will start off teaching your dog to touch the end of a touch stick. They should be very excited about the stick and you should click and treat for a good long while with this. It’s also important that they be highly motivated to a tug or other such motivator. You can use the click and treat method for the tug too if they are not already motivated in this regard.
Once the dog is touch stick trained and has good motivator training, you are ready to begin. You will then use the stick to teach them to go over and back through a wide jump prop. However, you should take the prop away before going to the wall because the dog could get hurt if they fall on the jump.
Stephanie said that “it is important which hand you hold your stick in, how high you hold the stick, where you stand, how you step when you call your dog off the wall….”
Since my dog has already been trained on an adjustable chute (see the i-Flyball website for plans), I plan to start there. My dog turns right off of the box, so I’m going start on my dog’s right side when we are both facing the chute. I’m going to start this training with the chute in the full upright position which is very close to 90 degrees but has a slight slant. I’m going to hold my tug in my left hand and use touch stick and touch the top part of the chute and then when my dogs jumps up on the chute I’m going to quickly pull this stick off the chute and have my dog grab the tug that is in my left hand. I’m going to work on this for a while to get the right response from my dog before moving to the wall.
This may or may not be how most people teach this but hopefully people will comment with their experiences.
You will then want to place some tape on the wall as a mark as to how high your dog should be jumping. Stephanie has the best words to describe this:
The tape should go on the wall at the same level as the dog’s elbows when the dog is “standing up.” What I usually do is walk the dog up to the wall, take his front feet and place them up against the wall. Then I take note of where his elbows are and place the tape there. Don’t have the dog STRETCHING up; just a relaxed stand with its feet on the wall is fine.
I plan on continuing as I described above but instead of the chute I will use the wall and tape. I also plan to use some matting that I will attach to the wall or maybe plywood. I know my dog and she will know that without the matting it’s not the same. I will let you all know how things work out for us by posting comments in the future.
Other Methods
I have seen video of people using a target like a big X made from tape and stuck to a wall. I’m not sure how effective this method is since the dog can tend to go wide. Following the stick off the wall seems to me to be a better method but I would love to see comments on this.
One other method is to use a tug on the wall which does not seem like a very good method either, and Stephanie has some words on this too:
The problem with using a tug rather than that stick is that your arms are short (compared to how long your “arm” is when you are holding the stick). So when you use your arm to hold the tug on the wall, your dog is going to be quicker than you are, and you won’t be able to get your short arm far enough off the wall quickly enough to achieve the result that you want. Some people also affix a ball to the end of the stick. Personally I do not agree with that. Lots of clicker work and the dog will like the stick without any ball on it.
So this is a work in progress for me and I hope that others that have used this method will provide other comments.
Larry
Addendum: Stephanie did stress the importance of finding a seminar for this training which I failed to mention in the original post. I do believe a seminar would be very beneficial and I would love to hear from anyone that could provide that service and would not mind traveling.
7 comments ↓
And as I said Larry, this method is extremely hard to explain how to do without seeing it for youself. I would encourage you and anyone else out there who is interested to find the folks using this training method who offer formal seminars or training and watch to see how it is done. You can’t learn to be Shaun White by reading a book
Unfortunately, some of us live in areas where a formal seminar is not always possible. Ten years ago there were no Flyball teams in Alabama at all. We just had to make do with what we had, which was really guess work. The first dog I trained for Flyball has just retired and really has no box turn. Subsequent dogs have had progressively better turns.
The dog I’m going to start with will almost do this now on command without a stick. She hasn’t done it on a vertical wall but very close to it. So I think she will be a good candidate for my first try at this. Sometimes you just have to give it a shot and see what happens.
I was the first in my area to use a clicker and it was frowned upon by my obedience instructor. However, the dog I was training at the time was the only one that passed the course. I had no formal training at all with a clicker and only read about it on the Internet. I have used a touch stick to accomplish other things like walking off leash so I have a good idea what I need to do.
With all of that said, I agree with you a formal seminar would be best if it were possible. If anyone has done this in the central Alabama area please let me know.
Stephanie,
Does the dog’s size matter? We are training a rather large BC right now. He is 9 months old, 50 pounds, and we started out directly on the box, no ball. As he has grown and muscled up, he seems to get better and better box turns but, not the kind of consistency that we would like to see.
In other words, he gets a pretty good box with a jump board. Sometimes, he fails to get his butt up on the box and so the jump board goes flying, etc. We don’t practice him without the jump board but, it will have to be taken out at some point. So, I’m curious if this will help a really big dog.
I might add, YouTube has some wonderful videos showing “wall” work for flyball but, nobody has uploaded a video showing how to introduce the wall to a dog who has never done it. Positioning yourself correctly is extremely important especially in relation to the direction your dog naturally turns. in the absence of a formal seminar, a video showing how to introduce the concept to your dog would be EXTREMELY helpful!
Thanks!
Chris
This is one of the questions I had but the way I currently train the box turn is by using an adjustable chute. I start off at the lowest setting which is almost flat on the ground and start moving it up to almost vertical. Right now I lure them or use a ball on the chute but I assume that I could use a touch stick for this and working on moving it gradually higher and higher to the vertical position.
I assume the way Stephanie does it by using a wide jump board to lure the dog over it and back with the touch stick gets the dog postured for following the stick. Once the jump is taken out, they probably just use the stick on the wall and have the dog follow it working it higher and higher over many training sessions. For anyone that has done this please correct me if I have this wrong.
You know Larry, I think sometimes many of us forget how blessed we are out in the CA/NV/AZ/UT area. Thanks for the reminder! It is great to have seminars and friends close by to bounce ideas off of and get feedback. There are so many people out here who think about flyball training and innovation and it’s really great.
Chris – I’ve got a 53 pound, 22 inch tall guy that we re-trained on the wall. He will still go wide occasionally though. Our “puppy” is 50 pounds and probably 19-inches tall. He was trained 90% on the wall. So big dogs can do it too!!!
I have always been interested in the wall method but since I don’t know how to start I have never tried. I still use a board with jumps in front and I move the board up the box until it lies flat against the front pedal- similar idea to chute training but I think an easier transition as the angle can be adjusted easily. Somewhere in there depending on the dog, I add the ball so that they learn the turn includes the ball.
Here in VA we don’t get many seminars and in the past when I have contacted some of the upper clubs I either don’t get a response or they flat out say no or we are taking a break from seminars. We are lucky to get 1 seminar in this area every couple years if that.
It is very frustrating that we can’t get folks out here for a seminar as we are an area still looking to improve and get faster (yes we have 16 and 17 second teams) but at the same time we also have folks who want to learn and improve.
I attend every seminar that is within a 5-8 hour drive if I know about it but it has been a couple years now since I have attended one since I am not always in the know.
I love learning knew training techniques (not just box methods but would love to learn how to build better drive) and when I train I will mix and match to figure out what works but it is hard to learn something knew by just reading about it or video that is only showing certain aspects of it like the wall method.
I’ve been playing flyball long enough to have an opinion, not long enough to know better, so I’ll go ahead and share.
I first got interested in training a better box turn by spending most of a tournament in the box judges’ seat. I watched boxes, dogs, and handlers. In subsequent tournaments, I watched with less dedication, but with an eye to props, dogs, and handlers. Plus, it isn’t as though there are seminars within a decent drive.
At this point, we feel we have trained six nice turns, with a few more in the offing. To an acceptable degree, we have also improved a once terrible turn into something less than that of a Mack truck hitting a brick wall at an angle. Where I am short, and I feel a seminar would be beneficial, is in training the approach and the exit.
The technique Larry explained on his i-Flyball website training manual is the foundation for, and incidentally the first, most explicit technique, I learned that I felt I could wrap my mind around. Since then, I would say, no going around the body and never use a cone except maybe to introduce the concept/build confidence in getting all four on the chute.
So tell me what you think of this “game”:
I added to the chute training, with an exercise I call “Bounces”. I like this as a fun game for handler and dog. Presumptions: you can send the dog to the chute (with prop) reliably from 10-15 feet, the dog turns right (flip handler positions for dog turning left), and plenty of space. I set up the adj chute at its highest angle and stake it down (do this in the yard). This is chute #1. Set up a second chute at its highest angle facing the first one squarely, and 15 feet away and stake it down. This is chute #2. Now imagine a line on the ground running from the center of chute #1 to the center of chute #2. Position yourself halfway between the chutes, with #1 on your left and #2 on your right. Stay 2-3 feet back from the center line. Position the dog in preparation to “Hit” chute #2. Send the dog with a “Hit It”, step across the line turning 180 to the right, call to the dog as they hit chute #2, and send them to chute #1 for the second “Hit It”. Call your dog as they hit chute #1 and whip the ball (did I tell you to have a ball, too?) past chute #2 on the side away from you. The dog runs a clean figure eight in this exercise. The set up for this is to first train with one chute. A dog that loves to chase balls will quickly figure out the fastest way to do a 180 off a nearly vertical surface. Never let them “cheat”, no clean “Hit It”, no ball to chase. Also, no need to throw the ball far (don’t waste training energy and practice time). Always “draw” the dog back across the line of approach, with your voice or the reward. It is important to use guides to mark the sides of the chute, especially as the dog gains confidence. Once they begin to anticipate the reward, it is up to the handler to ensure the dog sets up squarely and stays in control. Engage this activity with as much physical enthusiasm as you expect out of your dog. It takes an enthusiastic handler to have a dog enthusiastic about developing a snappy box turn. This also works using a tug for a reward. As the dog passes you on the way to the second “Hit It”, step forward across the line, call your dog as they hit the chute, and take off running away from them.
I feel that the dog must figure out how best to execute the turn within the parameters of the swimmers’ turn as long as the handler stands ready to reinforce the best efforts and most accurate executions. One area in which the wall technique really appeals to me is in that a wall does not have edges on it like a chute or flyball box does. There are times, for different reasons, when a dog does not jump onto the chute squarely, and their hind feet go off the edge.
We bought and watched SL’s DVD on training the box turn, and I find myself agreeing to the bulk of the content. I am more comfortable fading the lure as quickly as possible, if I have to use it at all. And I personally am still not comfortable with using the tall stanchions to “force” tight turns. But maybe for the dog who already knows the turn, they serve as a visual guide in judging spacing and distance.
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