Comments on: Subtracting 5 Instead of 4 http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/ i-Flyball Thu, 08 Dec 2011 13:35:10 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Jim L http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/comment-page-1/#comment-854 Jim L Thu, 13 Dec 2007 00:29:42 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/#comment-854 The problem our team has is not with the jump heights themselves, it is with the cheating that goes on at EVERY tournament. Ninety plus percent of height dogs do not get measured in our region. The few handlers that DO measure do so because they are afraid of being challenged by another team that has a beef with them. Otherwise they wouldn't do it either. Being one of those handlers, it is the most frustrating thing to look over in the next lane and see a dog that is obviously taller than mine, jumping lower! So you would say, why don't you challenge them? Because our team dies not wanted to be branded as the bad sports. NAFA doesn't need to adjust the jump heights, they need to MANDATE measuring and come up with a more accurate way to do it. Period. This and only this will level the playing field. The problem our team has is not with the jump heights themselves, it is with the cheating that goes on at EVERY tournament. Ninety plus percent of height dogs do not get measured in our region. The few handlers that DO measure do so because they are afraid of being challenged by another team that has a beef with them. Otherwise they wouldn’t do it either. Being one of those handlers, it is the most frustrating thing to look over in the next lane and see a dog that is obviously taller than mine, jumping lower! So you would say, why don’t you challenge them? Because our team dies not wanted to be branded as the bad sports. NAFA doesn’t need to adjust the jump heights, they need to MANDATE measuring and come up with a more accurate way to do it. Period. This and only this will level the playing field.

]]> By: Jenny http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/comment-page-1/#comment-853 Jenny Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:26:16 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/#comment-853 At the last region 14 tournament we had 26 teams. The height dog range was 7" - 5, 8" - 2, 9" - 6, 10" - 10, 11" - 6, and 12" -1. All the teams had a height dog listed. So if it changed 5 dogs would stay the same and 25 height dogs would jump 1" less. Statistically the change from 4 to 5 inches will be greater than the change to the top and bottom jump height in the number of dogs effected. Will there be a corresponding statistical change in speed? The only place you could tell for sure would be with well established teams that have a very consistant time over multiple tournaments. Otherwise it could all come back to the human part of the equation and passing. The exception would be in the upper heights above 11". Will this be better for the short guys as far as endurance and longevity is the main question. the secondary question is Will it be better for all the dogs as far as endurance and longevity are concerned? Also for consideration would be it's effect on the game itself. I believe that teams can jump any height above the minimum for their height dog except in veterans. Which measuring method is more accurate, less stressfull, less cheatable etc. is interesting but is not the question up for voting and will not be effected by the vote. My opinion is the rules comitee needs to do some serious thinking and some form of open discussion with all the teams to resolve the conflicts there. then come up with something to vote on about the actual measuring. At the last region 14 tournament we had 26 teams.
The height dog range was 7″ – 5, 8″ – 2, 9″ – 6, 10″ – 10, 11″ – 6, and 12″ -1. All the teams had a height dog listed. So if it changed 5 dogs would stay the same and 25 height dogs would jump 1″ less. Statistically the change from 4 to 5 inches will be greater than the change to the top and bottom jump height in the number of dogs effected. Will there be a corresponding statistical change in speed? The only place you could tell for sure would be with well established teams that have a very consistant time over multiple tournaments. Otherwise it could all come back to the human part of the equation and passing. The exception would be in the upper heights above 11″.

Will this be better for the short guys as far as endurance and longevity is the main question. the secondary question is Will it be better for all the dogs as far as endurance and longevity are concerned?
Also for consideration would be it’s effect on the game itself.

I believe that teams can jump any height above the minimum for their height dog except in veterans.

Which measuring method is more accurate, less stressfull, less cheatable etc. is interesting but is not the question up for voting and will not be effected by the vote. My opinion is the rules comitee needs to do some serious thinking and some form of open discussion with all the teams to resolve the conflicts there. then come up with something to vote on about the actual measuring.

]]> By: Jackie Gillies http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/comment-page-1/#comment-847 Jackie Gillies Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:09:28 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/#comment-847 I agree with you, that when you are jumping anything above 12, anything under 12 will increase your overall time. And, you will have more race/run from your dogs over the lower height. I agree with you, that when you are jumping anything above 12, anything under 12 will increase your overall time. And, you will have more race/run from your dogs over the lower height.

]]> By: BC-Rescue-Mom http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/comment-page-1/#comment-846 BC-Rescue-Mom Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:46:15 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/#comment-846 For those of you who keep insisting that 1 inch doesn't make a difference in the overall times of a team - I have to disagree. There is a significant time difference when you are jumping tall to begin with (say 12") and your height dog (for whatever reason) suddenly measures an inch taller at an event and your dogs are now jumping 13" instead of their usual 12" (yes, it's happened to us!). The overall times of the team when down significantly! And the fatigue level of the dogs was definitely noticable. By Sunday one dog just quit playing for the weekend. He decided he didn't like jumping a mountain anymore and simply refused to run anymore that day... and he's a BC! So when you are talking about the speed of your BC's and bigger dogs jumping 8" instead of 7" maybe the overall team times arent' affected - but when you are already jumping a mountain and have to another inch taller... it DOES show in the team times in the range of a half second or more. Am I for changing the rule to 5"? Not really sure yet, though coming from a team with no true height dogs (our smallest comes in at 10" if we're lucky) it would certainly help us out a ton at tournaments. Either way we will continue to play and have fun - but if they do change the rule to 5" we'll just be playing... faster! :) For those of you who keep insisting that 1 inch doesn’t make a difference in the overall times of a team – I have to disagree. There is a significant time difference when you are jumping tall to begin with (say 12″) and your height dog (for whatever reason) suddenly measures an inch taller at an event and your dogs are now jumping 13″ instead of their usual 12″ (yes, it’s happened to us!). The overall times of the team when down significantly! And the fatigue level of the dogs was definitely noticable. By Sunday one dog just quit playing for the weekend. He decided he didn’t like jumping a mountain anymore and simply refused to run anymore that day… and he’s a BC!

So when you are talking about the speed of your BC’s and bigger dogs jumping 8″ instead of 7″ maybe the overall team times arent’ affected – but when you are already jumping a mountain and have to another inch taller… it DOES show in the team times in the range of a half second or more.

Am I for changing the rule to 5″? Not really sure yet, though coming from a team with no true height dogs (our smallest comes in at 10″ if we’re lucky) it would certainly help us out a ton at tournaments. Either way we will continue to play and have fun – but if they do change the rule to 5″ we’ll just be playing… faster! :)

]]> By: Jackie Gillies http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/comment-page-1/#comment-845 Jackie Gillies Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:58:11 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/#comment-845 So I was think of the solution to measuring, and someone said something about a device used for Whippet racing I think? Pre set dohickys that you place over the dogs withers...one each for 13 on down to 7. The competitor walks up with their dog, can't touch it, the judge places it over it's back, if it does not touch the ground - next one up, or if their is alot of room, next one down. No moving wicket, no moving the feet, just walk the dog up... Judy, being a judge for as long as you have been, what do you think? You have seen it all, I am sure? So I was think of the solution to measuring, and someone said something about a device used for Whippet racing I think? Pre set dohickys that you place over the dogs withers…one each for 13 on down to 7. The competitor walks up with their dog, can’t touch it, the judge places it over it’s back, if it does not touch the ground – next one up, or if their is alot of room, next one down. No moving wicket, no moving the feet, just walk the dog up…

Judy, being a judge for as long as you have been, what do you think? You have seen it all, I am sure?

]]> By: Jenny http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/comment-page-1/#comment-844 Jenny Wed, 12 Dec 2007 02:42:05 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/#comment-844 Here is a thought on the change in the middle. When the last jump height change was made it changed for dogs under 12 inches and above18 inches. For height dogs 12 inches to 18 inches there was no change. This will make an adjustment for the middle guys. I wonder how many dogs measure to jump 7 as it is measured now. The change may effect more height dogs than the last one. I would think most height dogs fall in the midrange than at the ends. Gyp is 22 inches and runs with heights of 7, 9 and 10 depending on who he is running with. His speed doesn't seem to change in that range. Here is a thought on the change in the middle. When the last jump height change was made it changed for dogs under 12 inches and above18 inches. For height dogs 12 inches to 18 inches there was no change. This will make an adjustment for the middle guys. I wonder how many dogs measure to jump 7 as it is measured now. The change may effect more height dogs than the last one. I would think most height dogs fall in the midrange than at the ends. Gyp is 22 inches and runs with heights of 7, 9 and 10 depending on who he is running with. His speed doesn’t seem to change in that range.

]]> By: Kim http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/comment-page-1/#comment-843 Kim Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:17:22 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/#comment-843 Maybe I can sympathize with the shorter dogs since I am short myself. I have had to suck up a lot things being only 5' tall. Growing up I was quite athletic but I still had issues doing many things the way the taller kids did them. It gets a little annoying when people say the small dogs should suck it up. The problem is they do suck it up all the time. Why should they not be given a break like the bigger dogs get when they have a height dog. Giving the height dogs one less inch still does not give them the break the bigger dogs get who are jumping many, many inches less than their height at the withers. Maybe I can sympathize with the shorter dogs since I am short myself. I have had to suck up a lot things being only 5′ tall. Growing up I was quite athletic but I still had issues doing many things the way the taller kids did them.

It gets a little annoying when people say the small dogs should suck it up. The problem is they do suck it up all the time. Why should they not be given a break like the bigger dogs get when they have a height dog. Giving the height dogs one less inch still does not give them the break the bigger dogs get who are jumping many, many inches less than their height at the withers.

]]> By: Mike http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/comment-page-1/#comment-841 Mike Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:05:53 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/#comment-841 My team has a 16" Border Staffy that runs 4.1 to 4.2. But we, as a club, have decided that we don't like the way the dogs look when they jump at 12”. So only on very rare occasions do we use it as a height dog. Instead we run a 14” Staff that runs at 5 seconds. Change the rule to subtract 5" and we are much more likely to use the Boarder Staffy as a height dog, instead of the Staffy. So this rule will make our team go almost a second faster. Wait why am I writing this? My team has a 16″ Border Staffy that runs 4.1 to 4.2. But we, as a club, have decided that we don’t like the way the dogs look when they jump at 12”. So only on very rare occasions do we use it as a height dog. Instead we run a 14” Staff that runs at 5 seconds. Change the rule to subtract 5″ and we are much more likely to use the Boarder Staffy as a height dog, instead of the Staffy. So this rule will make our team go almost a second faster. Wait why am I writing this?

]]> By: eli http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/comment-page-1/#comment-840 eli Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:59:06 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/#comment-840 First I am not trying to change anything. I am curious and do not have the benefit of having been around the sport for a few decades. Jackie, Mike, and Not Mike finally got around to the point I was trying to make. Under the current system, dogs between 11" and 17" have the hurdles lowered 4". Shorter dogs and taller dogs just need to suck it up. The hurdles are placed 10' apart, if your dogs sprinting stride is not naturally 10', oh well. Teams are placed in tournament brackets based on speed. Then they race against teams jumping different heights. At the end of the day, the fastest team running the most clean heats, wins. (Wanna bet this is the team jumping 14"?) Many times, I have seen comments on how much more fatiguing it is for the dog to run 14". Just out of curiousity, how many times has the division winner/runner-up been one of the following: a team running 14", a team running 7"? The whole setup is a compromise... a pappy runs the same distance as a greyhound hurdles are 10' apart, few dogs above and below 13"-15" have a 10' stride at full speed hurdle height - that's been discussed ad nauseum... How did NAFA arrive at 4" lower than dogs standing between 11" and 18" at the withers? First I am not trying to change anything. I am curious and do not have the benefit of having been around the sport for a few decades.

Jackie, Mike, and Not Mike finally got around to the point I was trying to make.

Under the current system, dogs between 11″ and 17″ have the hurdles lowered 4″. Shorter dogs and taller dogs just need to suck it up.

The hurdles are placed 10′ apart, if your dogs sprinting stride is not naturally 10′, oh well.

Teams are placed in tournament brackets based on speed. Then they race against teams jumping different heights.

At the end of the day, the fastest team running the most clean heats, wins. (Wanna bet this is the team jumping 14″?) Many times, I have seen comments on how much more fatiguing it is for the dog to run 14″.

Just out of curiousity, how many times has the division winner/runner-up been one of the following: a team running 14″, a team running 7″?

The whole setup is a compromise…
a pappy runs the same distance as a greyhound
hurdles are 10′ apart, few dogs above and below 13″-15″ have a 10′ stride at full speed
hurdle height – that’s been discussed ad nauseum…

How did NAFA arrive at 4″ lower than dogs standing between 11″ and 18″ at the withers?

]]> By: Jackie Gillies http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/comment-page-1/#comment-839 Jackie Gillies Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:49:29 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/subtracting-5-instead-of-4/#comment-839 Not Mike....why do you think if you jump one inch less everyone will go faster? This is really not the case, or else all the U-FLI teams would be breaking land speed records. Honestly, the only dog the lower jump impacts is the height dog - they go a few tenths faster. Case in point. My teams fastest time over their NAFA height of 9 is 16.4 - our fastest U-FLI time over 7 is 16.1. Now, this difference is just a matter of passing, and the dogs running their times at the same time. Our height dog runs 4.2/4.3 over 9 and 4.0/4.1 over 7 - she is a short legged staffy mix. All our other dogs seem to run the same time over 9 as they do 7. Now, if the objective is that there are a whole lot of teams out there that have dogs teetering on 15/16 - 5 subtraction would give them an 11 inch jump height - much more user friendly than 12! (it is amazing what an inch can do...;) ) Not Mike….why do you think if you jump one inch less everyone will go faster? This is really not the case, or else all the U-FLI teams would be breaking land speed records. Honestly, the only dog the lower jump impacts is the height dog – they go a few tenths faster. Case in point. My teams fastest time over their NAFA height of 9 is 16.4 – our fastest U-FLI time over 7 is 16.1. Now, this difference is just a matter of passing, and the dogs running their times at the same time. Our height dog runs 4.2/4.3 over 9 and 4.0/4.1 over 7 – she is a short legged staffy mix. All our other dogs seem to run the same time over 9 as they do 7.

Now, if the objective is that there are a whole lot of teams out there that have dogs teetering on 15/16 – 5 subtraction would give them an 11 inch jump height – much more user friendly than 12! (it is amazing what an inch can do…;) )

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