Every now and then, someone comes up with a good suggestion only to have it ignored or shot down without a thought. Lori Whitney, Rapids Intens-A-Flyrs flyball team had a good suggestion about changes to the NAFA point system but it doesn’t look like the NAFA Board of Directors even gave it a thought, and if they did, it’s not reflected in the minutes. You can read the minutes of the February 9, 2008 Las Vegas, NV Board Meeting here and Lori’s suggestion here.
Point System
In case you need a refresher, here is the point structure of both NAFA and U-FLI:
NAFA (Section 8.1 of the NAFA Rules)
Each time a team races in a NAFA® sanctioned Flyball tournament with a recorded time under 24 seconds, each dog racing in that heat will receive 25 points toward a Flyball title; under 28 seconds each dog racing in that heat will receive 5 points; under 32 seconds each dog racing in that heat will receive 1 point; provided that a NAFA® judge is present and at least four teams compete. Each of the four teams must actually compete. All four teams may be from the same club provided each team registered with NAFA® was given an equal opportunity to enter, but chose not to.
U-FLI (Section 7.1 of the U-FLI Rules)
Dogs will receive points toward individual U-FLI titles based on the team’s time. Each dog listed as participating in a heat will be awarded points. No points will be awarded for heats in which a team received a forfeit, no finish, interference, fouling, or break out. Teams that receive an estimated time will be awarded U-FLI points.
Teams times Points earned 19.999 seconds and under 30 points per heat 20 seconds up to 24.999 seconds 25 points per heat 25 seconds up to 29.999 seconds 15 points per heat 30 seconds up to 35.000 seconds 10 points per heat Each of the dogs on a winning team in a heat will receive an additional 5 bonus points for that heat. If the team is racing against an Exhibition or Pickup Team, then no bonus points will be available.
Basic Suggestion
The point to Lori’s suggestion is that not every dog runs a 4-second heat and some teams never run under 24 seconds and are unable to achieve some of the basic titles. So, she suggests changes to the point system to allow dogs to be awarded 5 points for under 32 seconds, 10 points for under 28 seconds, and 25 points for under 24 seconds.
Recognition
I’ve said this before but it falls on deaf ears. Slower teams and slower dogs are not recognized by NAFA and this is just one more example of it. U-FLI does a much better job of recognizing slower teams and dogs. The U-FLI championship system and their point system are stark examples of this.
Dogs on these slower teams deserve titles even though they are not speed demons. These dogs work just as hard, if not harder, than dogs making 4-second runs. These slower teams and dogs are the heart and soul of what make’s flyball a sport for all dogs but they are least recognized in NAFA.
Larry
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28 comments ↓
This is where the minutes let us down sometimes. Would like to know what was said, if there was any discussion. It just said there was no vote.
It would help ease the gap when a club has some teams that run under 24 but not enough speed for all the teams to run under 24.
Biggest question in my mind would be how the change would effect dogs that are no longer running and the existing points for dogs currently running? Resolving how to impliment the change and it’s retroactive effect (if any) might be the biggest problem with the idea. Out of curiosity since I have most of Gyp’s stats I am going to compute the difference it would make for him.
Jenny
One of the things I prefer in NAFA over U-FLI is NAFA’s points system.
I value playing flyball over being the fastest, the winningest, accumulating the most points, or attending the most tournaments.
Another aspect of NAFA’s points system over U-FLI is the fact that in NAFA, 15 sec earns as many points as 23.999.
U-FLI emphasizes or rewards a focus on speed with an additional 5 points for under 20 seconds and the 5 point bonus for winning the heat.
20,000 points in NAFA is a big accomplishment for any dog. And slow dogs can get there. In U-FLI, you are just getting started.
What would be the value in more dogs getting to 20,000 NAFA points? Would there then be another milestone that needs to be easier get to?
I would rather see titles for every 2500 points after 5000 through 20,000. For example, FM Bronze, FM Silver, FM Gold, and so on.
I know of dogs that have been racing for years and haven’t archived their Flyball Masters (FM). Do you think that is fair? They know and play the game just as well as the faster dogs and teams.
I am not a fan of points in general, be it Ufli or NAFA. I’ve seen too many people do terrible things for points. dogs who are injured being run so that they can retire them with their ‘title’. dogs who obviously hate flyball being run for points. 4 second dogs being run on teams so that the 9 second dogs can get the points they deserve. it’s all left a bad taste in my mouth whenever I hear about points and titles.
the dogs don’t care about points, they just want to do flyball. points are all about the people. yes, it’s true, I have dogs who have earned lots of points and titles, and that’s nice. However, if you show up and your dog runs well, and the 3 other dogs in your lineup run well, points just happen. even for the slow teams. it’s when points become the goal that you know that flyball isn’t all about the dogs - because the dogs simply don’t care.
This is how I see it… Nafa is like baseball - it is rooted in its traditions and often is slow to change. Ufli on the other hand is like a politician - it wants to be everything for everyone… it may win a few elections but in the end it will have made too many promisses.
I love baseball - I like the idea that change takes time - decisions are not rushed and we can compare records from 20 years ago and 20 years in the future.
I like politics and I have voted for Mr.Everything, at least once… but in 20 years I will forget him!
BorderGirl,
I like your analogy.
The danger is in not staying relevant. Baseball did not “change” to deal with HGH and ‘roids. This is an issue the founders of the game did not foresee, and the organization was too slow to respond to it.
I think we need to understand where flyball came from and constantly evaluate whether this fits today’s needs. If flyball today is not what it was 20 years ago, then the sanctioning organization should reflect this.
Or refuse to “update” and become irrelevant to the majority population.
This is not necessarily a bad thing; there are many special interest organizations supporting less popular interests.
Good points eli!
I compare the HGH issue with the measuring problem… both assume the player/owner is following the rules without (or with minimal) enforcement. The solutions are not simple but in the end individuals need to be accountable.
When I hear people talk about UFLI they key in on the differences. Its natural I suppose… but with so many little and major changes I dont how UFLI will deal with serious adversity - which is bound occur as an organization grows larger and older.
I am hesitant to change for change sake and I often think of the old proverb - all the glitters isn’t gold!
Speedy wrote –
I’ve seen too many people do terrible things for points. dogs who are injured being run so that they can retire them with their ‘title’. dogs who obviously hate flyball being run for points. 4 second dogs being run on teams so that the 9 second dogs can get the points they deserve. ….
Speedy, I don’t like to see any dog *doing* something it does not enjoy whether flyball, agility or anything else. But what is *terrible* about blending fast and slow dogs so the whole team is capable of earning titles ?? I’ve always felt it was *terrible* to put all the fast dogs on one team and leave the slower ones to run 27 or 31 second heats on another team. True, the dogs do not know the difference but they DO pick up the vibes of the owners — and owners do not like to feel short-changed.
From my perspective, I recently left a team because the leader was obsessed with points. So obsessed that other members would get yelled at for an early pass or a bobbled ball. In my book, those things happen - humans and dogs aren’t perfect. We were told to worry more about clean runs than winning the race. Big passes were fine as long as we were still under 24 seconds. If a dog bobbled, they pulled the dog immedately because it was having “trouble” and the other dogs on the team were losing points. If we were running 3 out of 5 heats, we were told to let our dogs go later so we’d lose the races and get more points. Young and inexperienced dogs, if considered fast, were forced out on the lanes too quickly and run too much in the beginning. Lineups were organized so all the fast dogs were on one team, then the “trouble” dogs, then the green dogs. The fast dogs were frequently double-run in multiple lineups so that the appearance of fairness remained.
What happened in the end is that all of us with the slower, non-border collie/aussie/push button, bobbling dogs left and formed our own team. We are currently running our four most consistent and experienced dogs on the same team. We don’t make many points, bouncing between 23 and 25 seconds depending on the many factors that pop-up when you put four dogs and four handlers together at the same time. But, we are having fun!
For the first time in a long while, we remember why we began playing flyball. Our dogs are happier in the lanes and we are closer, more loving, and far more forgiving of our teammates mistakes than we ever were before. We may never make many points, but it doesn’t matter. At least we are still playing - if we hadn’t left the other team, we all would have quit within the year.
Although I like a change in points - it would be nice as a slower team to get more points when we run under 28 seconds and over 24 seconds - I am okay with NAFA’s decision not to change the system. I do fervently wish, however, the board would have made notes on the type of discussion that followed this suggestion. It would have been very interesting to see what thoughts the different members held. Without notes on the discussion, it makes we wonder whether there was even a discussion. As a Flyball participant, I hesitate to make other suggestions if I feel my suggestion may just be ignored without discussion. From what I read in the minutes, this is exactly what happened.
I have never played flyball for points. In the beginning, my first dog, Fraizer, was pretty slow..he only played for me. He got 19 points in his/my first tournament in 1991 jumping over 16 inches. He didn’t care, and I didn’t care. When I later formed my own team, I wanted teams that were consistant - and competitve within each of their divisions which ranged from Div 1 - 6. By being competitive the points came…but, we as a team really didn’t care…we were having fun, and running competitively - which was a blast.
I just got back from a U-FLI tourney in Ohio, and I could not tell you how many points any of my dogs got..some earned titles, but I have no clue what ones! I play for the pure fun of the sport, the companionship I have with my teammates and fellow flyballers, and to do as well as we can in our divisions.
I understand how for some it is important. I had at one time the # 3 pointed English Springer and the #3 pointed English Cocker in NAFA - that was a very fun bragging point…but, we got there by having fun, not by trying to get there. We are lucky that we all have the choice to play in now 2 organizations and can choose what team we want to play with - a team with like minded goals. I don’t think if NAFA changes their point system it will satisfy everyone - there will always be someone, somewhere that falls outside the bracket, and will want to change it again.
At the end of the day, does it really matter? What matters is having fun with your dog and teammates. If you are not having fun because you are not earning enough points, I don’t think the ability to earn more will make you happy either…you will just be able to get to titles faster.
I for one think points ARE important - especially for new members. It gives them a sense of accomplishment with their dog when they earn a new title.
The first club I ever played on stacked all the fastest dogs onto 1 team and the ‘rest of us’ ran on the other team. *Bear in mind the ‘A’ team wasn’t running world record times - they were running in the 20-21 second range. It was very discouraging watching the ‘A’ team rack up 700 points a tourney while the ‘B’ team was LUCKY to pull in a couple hundred! It was maddening… I mean really, were the owners of the slower dogs less important that the members with the fast dogs? We had to pay the same dues and the same tournament fees! Why were we discouraged against just because we had the slower dogs… doesn’t flyball tote itself as a game for any dog — fast or slow? That left a VERY bad taste in my mouth and when I left and started a new team I made up my mind that ALL the dogs deserved to run AND get points!
That being said… our club DOES NOT run solely for points! We run to compete and we run to win! We are just as competitive with our fastest team as we are with our slowest. We would NEVER tank a heat/race to get more races and/or more points. What fun is that? And what does it say about a team that does that? Nothing good as far as I am concerned.
Right now the fastest dog in the club runs with 2 of the slower dogs in the club and a height dog. Why??? So ALL of our teams can stay in the points AND be competitive in their respective divisions. My fast dog doesn’t care where or who he plays with… just as long as he gets to play! He runs low 4’s no matter who we race. It’s important to me that all of our teams race and have fun and get points. I know the dogs don’t care about the titles… but the owners do and I’d much rather give up my fast dog to a slower team so they can race AND be competitive in their division. A first place is just as important to me in Division 2 as it is in Division 6! *We’ll probably never be D1 - so didn’t want to put in that anaology.
Thanks for your comment Jean. I thought I was the only one out there that would like to give the slower teams and dogs a chance to get a couple extra points. It doesn’t seem like it’s too much to ask to go from 1 point to 5 and from 5 to 10. The faster teams are going to get their 25 points anyway.
I must say that I never had a problem with my dogs getting points and have two Grand Champions. However, I know of dogs that have been running just as long as my two, have attended almost the same amount of tournaments, and have a quarter of the points just because they were placed on slower teams. Additionally, both of the dogs I’m thinking about are just as fast as my dogs and they have just as much tournament experience.
As you said, “points ARE important - especially for new members.” Moreover, it does give them a sense of accomplishment and it also encourages them to continue in the sport.
OK finally got it figured out. For Gyp who started in June 2003 through June 2007. It would have made a little over 2100 points difference. There are 700 points in there that I do not have a breakdown for. I am missing a good bit from June till now so I have not included those times. Title wise currently it means we would be just over 15000 points. He currently has 13413. Doesn’t make much difference when a team is running consistantly under 24 but for the teams that are consistant between 24 and 28 with the occasional under 24 run thrown in it makes a difference.
Breakdown per year
year 1 1098 to 1523 diff 425
year 2 2400 to 3230 diff 830
year 3 3807 to 4380 diff 473
year 4 2566 to 2927 diff 361
I can clean up my spread sheet and finish up to date if there is any intrest.
Since he has tended to run on teams that fluctuate on either side of 24 seconds, thought he would be a good subject to look at.
The club I run with tries to be fair.
We field a fastest team (not D1 quality) but ONLY if the other teams can get under 24 seconds consistently.
The club has been known to run in the 19’s as a multi so we do have some fast dogs but we won’t put them altogether unless the other teams have a shot. We also care about every division we run in. We run for fun but we want to compete. Many times the “slower team” entered comes away with more points than the faster team. When we lost a few fast dogs we were putting together 23 second teams and placing in our div. and getting a lot of points.
As a club we voted to run a fastest team as long as the other teams can run under 24. We have some folks with slower dogs who are thinking about putting a rec team together just so the dogs can run and not worry about points… they sometimes feel guilty about us having to run fast dogs with their dogs so they can get points.
Points are for the people and running is for the dogs. Not everyone cares about points and not everyone cares about running fast but at this point I don’t think the point system needs to be changed.
I enjoy when my dogs reach titles but I am happier that my dogs are loving the game. That is more important to me than the points.
I think it’s great that you don’t care about points but other people may, especially new people. You can choose to believe it or not but people are part of Flyball too. Without them there would be no Flyball.
No where did I say people aren’t part of flyball. I guess I should care more about points than the happiness of my dogs. Sorry that won’t happen. I do flyball for my dogs first, me second and points last. Why do something that you and your dogs don’t enjoy.
I also never said people shouldn’t care about points. I said I don’t think the point system needs be to changed and that points are not my first goal when running dogs.
I am the first one on my club to pull my dogs so others can run, I put teams together so all dogs have a chance at points and I am the first one to put my dogs which happen to currently to be the fastest on the team with the slowest dogs on the team so they can get points.
I may not care as much about points as much as others but I do try and make it where everyone on my club can get points.
That is why flyball is a team sport.
Well Kim thanks for clearing that up for me!
So you do think that there are people out there that think points are important and you would gladly pull your dog so that others can get points. However, you like the points system just the way it is even if the slower dogs and teams with just as much experience playing Flyball as your dog(s) get fewer points and titles. I guess the faster dogs and teams deserve the points and titles more that the slower ones.
Thanks everyone, I’ll go back to my corner now and color.
It certainly would not *hurt* anything if NAFA chose to give more points to the slower teams. But… let me tell you our story. I started in flyball in ‘98. We were ecstatic to get our four dogs *down and back* — what points ?? Oh, that would be nice (to get 25) but we weren’t capable of that. Next year, we lucked up on some 23 second runs — now THAT was exciting !! (By the way, we had NO idea what *passing* was — or starting further back than 15 feet, LOL)
Soon we had a team that COULD make the points, we learned passing, and those in the market for a *new* dog looked for one that should be able to make less than 5 second runs, and *turn off* at home.
It IS a fact that people starting the game start it with what they HAVE, and not all of those dogs will be capable of 5 second runs… but many will, with the right training and encouragement (especially for the people).
Our club is now capable of running 6 teams. ALL 6 will be able to make 25 point runs — because we are balancing the teams to make SURE of it. It doesn’t hurt that the slowest dog is under 8 seconds, but that is as much luck as it is design.
All dog sports have a *lower limit* — a standard of performance. Lowering the standard might not be a bad thing to do, to avoid discouraging those who can not make the higher goals. But how low do you really NEED to go and why not use the higher standards to ENCOURAGE team captains to help the slower dogs reach the higher goals by creating teams they can make points on — instead of throwing them to the bottom and letting them fend for themselves ??
I have a question, what is more fun for new persons, winning in the divisions they are seeded in - despite speed and points; or coming in last place with a boat load of points? And a title that does not mean anything to anyone except us that play.
To me, the fun has and always will be the thrill of the race. Points aside, I love those squeaky toys! When your team is actually “competing” and not worried about clean runs for points, your dogs get more energized.
The proposal was to go from 1 to 5 points for runs between 28 and 32 seconds, from 5 to 10 points for runs between 24 and 28 seconds, and the under 24 second did not change. It is a very minuscule change but one that could make a difference over time. Everything you are all saying would not change that much by adding 4 and 5 points. The under 24 second run would still maintain the meaning it has now.
This very small change to the point structure may allow a slower team that walks away from a two day tournament with less than 100 point to maybe walk about with 150 points. However, it may mean that over the racing life span of a dog running on one of these teams the difference between an FDCh-G and a FM or a FMX over an FM, etc. I don’t think this is asking that much and Flyball the way we all know it won’t not lose anything by this change but it may gain something.
How about this perspective: flyball teams today run faster due to lower heights and faster flyball box/turns and more consistent training across the community. I like tradition and history but find it difficult to compare an Onyx as Onyx earned it versus the Onyx a dog is awarded after two years of racing in 20-plus tournaments a year.
My reference: On Your Mark
Mr Randall uses 6 seconds to determine faster, slower in Chap 10 - Practice and in Chapter 11 - Preparing for a Tournament.
Instead of lowering standards, how about increasing standards to acknowledge the current state of flyball? For example, in reading through “On your Mark”, I get the impression that 6 seconds is some kind of “fast/not fast” mark. I think this is relevant, as it is my understanding that the author wrote the first NAFA rule book, also.
So, if the NAFA point structure was developed based on a team average 6 seconds per dog, then the team that was faster than 24 seconds was awarded maximum points. But this does not reflect flyball today, does it? How many divisions in each tournment have breakouts lower than 24 seconds? Is it the same percentage as it was 15 years ago?
Even the slowest division has teams in it with seed times faster than 24 seconds. Do all teams “deserve” a shot at 25 points per heat?
But what if the scale were “rebalanced”. Let’s say the “fast” flyball dog is now…say…5 seconds. This should “rebalance” the scale to where exceeding 20 seconds earns the maximum points per heat. “Slide” the whole scale “down” 4 seconds, or one second per dog.
This would make for a more favorable comparison between today’s Onyx awardee versus the original, today’s Hobbe’s awardee versus the original.
Would this not increase the value of the 1 and 5 point heat? Would this not be a more favorable comparison of today’s competitors to the original competitors?
The scale would look like this: Under 20 sec, 25 Pts; under 24 sec, 5 Pts; under 28 sec, 1 Pt.
I think this would negatively impact Open class, though. Folks wanting to “run for fun” while visiting out of region always want to know going in that the prospective Open team can beat 24 seconds. Cut 25 points to under 20 seconds and the Open class gets pretty slim. Maybe?
I have to agree with Eli - the point system doesn’t reflect the current state of flyball with regards to fast teams who are getting faster and faster. It seems to me like the point system the way it’s set up in NAFA is designed to give a reward to the slower teams. so many people are focused on the feelings of the owners of the 8 second dogs.
For those out there who are more than happy to put your 4 second dogs in a 24 second lineup to get points for your 9 and 10 second teammates, I say you’re great and generous people. but not everyone with fast dogs feel that way. What if you are the person with the fast dog on the club who is always put on the slowest team because that’s the only way the 10 second dogs can get points? well your dog will never reach it’s full potential because it’s never challenged to race similar fast dogs. do the feelings of that person count less than the feelings of the person with the slow dog who’s getting the 25 points on the back of your dog?
and did the 10 second dog really ‘earn’ anything if it needs a 4 second dog to do it?
In response to Jackie’s comment about what’s more fun for new people - I can tell you from my experience newbies just learning the game are generally THRILLED when their dog earns a new title even if their team came in last place in their division. Most are just so happy that their dog went down and back clean they could care less about where they finished in the placements. It’s about their individual accomplishment with their dog that matters most to the newbies I’ve trained vs. a first place ribbon “that does not mean anything to anyone except us that play.”
In response to Eli… Restructuring the point system to LOWER the 25 point runs to teams that can only run 20 seconds will only discourage people from playing the game in my opinion.
Here’s an idea of how it effects the ‘average recreational team.’ At the last tournament we went to there were a total of 38 teams running. Of those 38 teams only 9 would have earned any 25-point runs! *Bear in mind I’m basing this on the results of the event and several of the 9 teams had a BEST tournament time of 19 seconds - this isn’t to say they ran under 20 seconds with any consistency.
In response to Speedy - Wow! A little harsh on the slow dogs & teams aren’t we?! I don’t for a second think my dog’s potential is compromised by who he runs with or against! He runs 4 seconds no matter where he plays. If I thought otherwise… I’d move him to a different team. So if someone has a issue with where their dog is running - they need no speak up and address it with their team Captain - plain and simple. Everyone’s feeling are important when you play a team sport…. yes, even the feelings of the person with the 8 second dog! Not just the people with 4 second dogs!
OK… I think I need to go color with Larry now since my opinions likely won’t be popular ones!
Jean,
You opinions are yours, and that of your team, and are no less valid than any thought posted here. It is easy for me to say, as I have never cared about points. It is more fun to be competitive than have a title that no one but us who plays cares about. Same as you say a first place ribbon. When I am asked by friends, “how did you do?” If I say 1st in our Div. - they understand. But saying I got a FD, FDX, TF etc…means nothing.
I agree that it is up to every team to decided how best to set up their teams. If YOU are on a team, and you don’t agree with your fast dog being run with slower dogs, then leave the team. This is a team sport, and teams should be set up in the interest of it’s members. I have never cared where my “fast”dogs run (and all my dogs run under 5 seconds, with a few under 4).
If the newbies don’t care about “racing” or winning, then, why play. They could just go down and back all day for points. The object of the game is to “race” the other team, generating points is just the bonus that comes along with it.
I started pre-divisions. When the then 19 second teams raced the (me) 32 + second team. I was thrilled when Divisons were introduced so we raced teams of like speed - points was never a factor.
I think what Speedy was also trying to get across is the fact that many dogs actually race their competition. So if you are racing a 4 second dog against 6-7 second dogs then there is a chance your dog will be slower than if they ran against a faster dog that made them actually run.
that’s exactly what I mean Kim.
what if my dog will run 4.5 seconds in a 24 second lineup, but could run 4.3 seconds in a 18 second lineup. it’s not always about points.
I’m sorry if I sound harsh vs slower dogs/teams, they are just as important to the sport as the faster teams, but everyone’s goals/opinions/feelings are important, right, not just the people wanting their points so they can earn another title. that’s not the only goal in flyball.
Jean, your point is spot on regarding how 20 sec would affect most tournaments. Maybe “sliding” the scale “down” 2 seconds to 22 would be more appropriate?
I feel increasing the value of a point has better historical, current, and future context as opposed to inflating the point system.
This topic seems to have generated a free exchange of ideas, and everyone contributing their thoughtful and thought-provoking opinions and experiences contributes to a richer picture of and for flyball enthusiasts.
I can relate to what Speedy said. I’ve experieced it and left a club because of it.
I have noticed when it’s a larger dog that runs slower it seems to be a HUGE thorn in ones side. If it’s a height dog… not as much.
I suppose it’s because there’s a trade off for the smaller legs and one of the reasons a height dog (more like, it’s owner) can potentially hold such affuence on a team. If misused, as I have experienced personally. I admit freely height dogs and big dogs create sort of a symbiotic relationship in which points, tiltles, pins, ribbons, squeaky toys,whatever , cannot be earned without the other.
I know there are very fast and very slow dogs of all sizes in the racing lanes.
I also know my dogs awalys runs faster when racing against a fast dog. They like the competion.
These are racing strategies and Club beliefs that should be discussed as a team and not decided by the “captain”, and futher, think it would be “honorable” to inform prospective students/members BEFORE they join or even show up for practice with your club. Let them know your club philosophy and how racing line-ups will potentially be formed. I believe flyball is a team sport, no one person should hold all the cards. The dogs work together, so should the humans. If other clubs choose to form line ups differently than my club believes we should, that’s up to them. That’s why they’re on that team and I’m on mine. Plain and simple.
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