Comments on: When Philosophies Collide http://www.flyballblog.com/when-philosophies-collide/ i-Flyball Thu, 08 Dec 2011 13:35:10 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Tammy Foss http://www.flyballblog.com/when-philosophies-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-2203 Tammy Foss Mon, 17 Oct 2011 21:55:19 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/flyball/#comment-2203 Such an interesting conversation from 2007 - just on the precursor to having been tossed from a team because our dog was too old and too slow. As a two year old team, we are striving to combine the best of fun and playing flyball safely. Winning is not important to everyone - and is not even close to our focus. Our dogs are just as excited to play as any other fast racing dog and yep we have dogs running under 6 seconds. :) This conversation is really old, but I want my two cents out in the world. Seattle FlyDogs will always welcome any dog to the sport, teach them how to play safely, practice ongoing training habits, hang out with our teammates and be an overall fun group to be around. Such an interesting conversation from 2007 – just on the precursor to having been tossed from a team because our dog was too old and too slow.

As a two year old team, we are striving to combine the best of fun and playing flyball safely. Winning is not important to everyone – and is not even close to our focus. Our dogs are just as excited to play as any other fast racing dog and yep we have dogs running under 6 seconds. :)

This conversation is really old, but I want my two cents out in the world.

Seattle FlyDogs will always welcome any dog to the sport, teach them how to play safely, practice ongoing training habits, hang out with our teammates and be an overall fun group to be around.

]]> By: eli http://www.flyballblog.com/when-philosophies-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-314 eli Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:08:14 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/flyball/#comment-314 In the two years I have been involved in Flyball, I would say that I have seen teams from "Funners" to "Winners" at one time or another. It takes drive to put together a team capable of running under 17-18 seconds - much more drive than a pure "Funner" cares to commit to. This kind of speed is finessed in the details. I feel the best kind of team has that person or two that worries the details, a person or two that can get everybody to talk, and that person or two that can lighten a tense moment or just plain have you in stitches for the lighter moments. I do not feel I am a "Funner" if I am not driven to compete in Div I, and I do not feel I am a "Winner" because I feel that each heat should result in points. Because being worth points means you have done it correctly and safely. And everyone pitched in (dogs and people), resulting in a sense of team accomplishment. And all this starts with regular practices, staying consistent with techniques that work, and staying abreast of what works for others. Because each dog responds in his own way, and each person responds in their unique way. Work hard, play hard, bring everybody home! In the two years I have been involved in Flyball, I would say that I have seen teams from “Funners” to “Winners” at one time or another.
It takes drive to put together a team capable of running under 17-18 seconds – much more drive than a pure “Funner” cares to commit to. This kind of speed is finessed in the details.
I feel the best kind of team has that person or two that worries the details, a person or two that can get everybody to talk, and that person or two that can lighten a tense moment or just plain have you in stitches for the lighter moments.
I do not feel I am a “Funner” if I am not driven to compete in Div I, and I do not feel I am a “Winner” because I feel that each heat should result in points. Because being worth points means you have done it correctly and safely. And everyone pitched in (dogs and people), resulting in a sense of team accomplishment.

And all this starts with regular practices, staying consistent with techniques that work, and staying abreast of what works for others. Because each dog responds in his own way, and each person responds in their unique way.

Work hard, play hard, bring everybody home!

]]> By: Larry http://www.flyballblog.com/when-philosophies-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-44 Larry Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:49:16 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/flyball/#comment-44 Jayne – I totally agree with you. I think I fall in the middle somewhere too because I want to have fun and win too; I like the term Fun-Winners. I want my dogs trained well no matter if they run 4 seconds or 6+ seconds. There is no reason that both can’t coexist on the same team I guess I can also be called a moderate if you use the analogy of Left and Right – Liberal and Conservative. The extreme Funners and Winners is where I see a problem which is the same in politics (for me). Jayne – I totally agree with you. I think I fall in the middle somewhere too because I want to have fun and win too; I like the term Fun-Winners. I want my dogs trained well no matter if they run 4 seconds or 6+ seconds. There is no reason that both can’t coexist on the same team I guess I can also be called a moderate if you use the analogy of Left and Right – Liberal and Conservative. The extreme Funners and Winners is where I see a problem which is the same in politics (for me).

]]> By: Jayne http://www.flyballblog.com/when-philosophies-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-42 Jayne Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:16:07 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/flyball/#comment-42 We cringe at the pure FUNNER philosophy, the dogs smashing faces, dogs who aren't ready, handlers who stand at the line with a treat while the dog debates if it's worth coming closer to that treat when they'll be grabbed. Our current team's goal is to have well trained, competitive dogs, who run to the best of their ability. We spend oodles of time training new dogs slowly, carefully. We seek out new training methods all the time. But, we very rarely end up in Div 1. Now, some Winners might say we are just a bunch of Funners, we have rescue dogs, and just dogs who were pets, dogs who also do other sports, we have 3 height dog hybrids on our team that are all rejects from other teams, we even have dogs who run 6+ seconds GASP! But the dogs have good turns, we run well, we want to have good starts, passes, and really RACE the other teams in whatever division. I think we are an example of being Fun Winners. We do the best with what we have, but we aren't exactly rushing out to get a new dog every month, we aren't disposing of our dogs who aren't fast enough etc. There can be a bad side to being too focused on winning just like those too focused on having fun. We cringe at the pure FUNNER philosophy, the dogs smashing faces, dogs who aren’t ready, handlers who stand at the line with a treat while the dog debates if it’s worth coming closer to that treat when they’ll be grabbed. Our current team’s goal is to have well trained, competitive dogs, who run to the best of their ability. We spend oodles of time training new dogs slowly, carefully. We seek out new training methods all the time. But, we very rarely end up in Div 1. Now, some Winners might say we are just a bunch of Funners, we have rescue dogs, and just dogs who were pets, dogs who also do other sports, we have 3 height dog hybrids on our team that are all rejects from other teams, we even have dogs who run 6+ seconds GASP! But the dogs have good turns, we run well, we want to have good starts, passes, and really RACE the other teams in whatever division. I think we are an example of being Fun Winners. We do the best with what we have, but we aren’t exactly rushing out to get a new dog every month, we aren’t disposing of our dogs who aren’t fast enough etc.
There can be a bad side to being too focused on winning just like those too focused on having fun.

]]> By: Beth http://www.flyballblog.com/when-philosophies-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-39 Beth Mon, 23 Jul 2007 03:12:36 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/flyball/#comment-39 Great discussion and timely for us. We have decided we are fun winners, as one of our teammates said. Best of both worlds. We are an evolving group. When we first got started we hoped to just run clean and pick up some points and titles here and there. As we've improved and gotten more consistent, our goals have naturally evolved to where we like to get some better placements and wins now and again. We've even been talking U-fli qualifiers lately. Still we have always strived (striven?) to train for safety and technique first and are having a good ole time doing what we do. Great discussion and timely for us. We have decided we are fun winners, as one of our teammates said. Best of both worlds. We are an evolving group. When we first got started we hoped to just run clean and pick up some points and titles here and there. As we’ve improved and gotten more consistent, our goals have naturally evolved to where we like to get some better placements and wins now and again. We’ve even been talking U-fli qualifiers lately. Still we have always strived (striven?) to train for safety and technique first and are having a good ole time doing what we do.

]]> By: Steve http://www.flyballblog.com/when-philosophies-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-37 Steve Sun, 22 Jul 2007 19:18:00 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/flyball/#comment-37 I believe a very important point has been missed regarding "Funners" and "Winners" and that is it is not an either or. Yes Winners want to have fun and Funners, in fact, want to win-it is much more fun winning than losing, and I think most Funners want to win. It is really the degree of importance a Winner puts on winning and a Funner put on having fun that is the issue. I know people who cannot have fun unless they win, and that is neither good for them or their dogs, because the dogs sense it. On the other hand if Funners put no credence to winning they have missed something improtant in the sport. I completely disagree with the comments that winners train their dogs any better than Funners. Also, a newcomer, gets all kinds of conflicting information about the "right" way to do things so whether someone is a Funner or Winner it is frequently difficult to end up training a dog correctly. I believe a very important point has been missed regarding “Funners” and “Winners” and that is it is not an either or. Yes Winners want to have fun and Funners, in fact, want to win-it is much more fun winning than losing, and I think most Funners want to win. It is really the degree of importance a Winner puts on winning and a Funner put on having fun that is the issue. I know people who cannot have fun unless they win, and that is neither good for them or their dogs, because the dogs sense it. On the other hand if Funners put no credence to winning they have missed something improtant in the sport. I completely disagree with the comments that winners train their dogs any better than Funners. Also, a newcomer, gets all kinds of conflicting information about the “right” way to do things so whether someone is a Funner or Winner it is frequently difficult to end up training a dog correctly.

]]> By: Valerie http://www.flyballblog.com/when-philosophies-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-34 Valerie Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:04:58 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/flyball/#comment-34 Winners can be funners and funners can be winners! I think everyone goes into the ring to win. If they don't win they have points, and if they don't have points they've had a great day (hopefully) with their dogs, their team mates and other flyballers. What is sometimes not very nice (understatement) is that some people dump their dogs if they don't come up to their expectations, or put them to one side, or worse. Flyball is a hobby. A sport that we do with what should be our best pals, our dogs. Too many folks have only one thing in mind. Winning. And if they don't win, they beat their chests and blame their dogs, the lights, the judge, anything. Their day/weekend ruined and they've had no fun and go home unhappy. I've watched very experienced and inexperienced dogs running and I've seen accidents and injuries in both camps. One of my dogs hits the box like a bomb before continuing with a swimmers turn. She has always done it this way and it's always made people cringe. My dogs are seen by a chiropractor every couple of months to keep them "tuned up." Her structure is 100% healthy and sound and she's 10 years of age and still running at 4.81. The only injury she ever suffered was from a very experienced dog who came into her lane to get her ball and bit her through the muzzle into her gum and put her atlas out of kilter. The dog that did it had never been known to do this sort of thing before. A dog is a dog is a dog. Not a machine that never goes wrong. There should always be the F word....... Fun, in flyball whether you are a funner or a winner. Winners can be funners and funners can be winners!
I think everyone goes into the ring to win. If they don’t win they have points, and if they don’t have points they’ve had a great day (hopefully) with their dogs, their team mates and other flyballers.
What is sometimes not very nice (understatement) is that some people dump their dogs if they don’t come up to their expectations, or put them to one side, or worse.
Flyball is a hobby. A sport that we do with what should be our best pals, our dogs. Too many folks have only one thing in mind. Winning. And if they don’t win, they beat their chests and blame their dogs, the lights, the judge, anything. Their day/weekend ruined and they’ve had no fun and go home unhappy.
I’ve watched very experienced and inexperienced dogs running and I’ve seen accidents and injuries in both camps.
One of my dogs hits the box like a bomb before continuing with a swimmers turn. She has always done it this way and it’s always made people cringe. My dogs are seen by a chiropractor every couple of months to keep them “tuned up.” Her structure is 100% healthy and sound and she’s 10 years of age and still running at 4.81. The only injury she ever suffered was from a very experienced dog who came into her lane to get her ball and bit her through the muzzle into her gum and put her atlas out of kilter. The dog that did it had never been known to do this sort of thing before.
A dog is a dog is a dog. Not a machine that never goes wrong.
There should always be the F word……. Fun, in flyball whether you are a funner or a winner.

]]> By: Robbie http://www.flyballblog.com/when-philosophies-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-24 Robbie Fri, 20 Jul 2007 14:09:46 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/flyball/#comment-24 Consider this: Whose dog has more fun? The Funner's dog or the Winner's dog? Is it the dog that has learned it will get some cheese if it carries a ball over four jumps? Or is it the dog that stares down the dog in the other lane and gives it's heart to beat that dog? We strive to be a Winner. Our method is to make Flyball fun for the dogs. The more fun they are having, the faster they will be. Consider this:
Whose dog has more fun?
The Funner’s dog or the Winner’s dog?
Is it the dog that has learned it will get
some cheese if it carries a ball over four jumps?
Or is it the dog that stares down the dog in the
other lane and gives it’s heart to beat that dog?

We strive to be a Winner. Our method is to make
Flyball fun for the dogs. The more fun they are
having, the faster they will be.

]]> By: Larry http://www.flyballblog.com/when-philosophies-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-23 Larry Fri, 20 Jul 2007 12:58:24 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/flyball/#comment-23 Thanks for your comment Pete and it sounds like we’ve had very similar experiences. I too left my first team for much the same reasons as you have stated. But the team that I was on has since changed some of their training methods and has gotten a lot better. I witnessed something at a tournament with a different team just a couple months ago that really made me cringe. Here is this very nice young extremely fast Border Collie running down to the box and just smashing headlong into it. It was hurting me just watching this and every time he would hit the box I would just gasp and wince. The whole back half of his body was coming completely off the mat every time he hit the box, a real face plant. After the race I went up to the person and told them that they were going to cause serious injury to their dog if they continued to run the dog without teach him a proper box turn. The team owner joined the conversation and said that they are trying to teach the dog and are working on the problem. People just don’t get it. If a dog starts hitting the box without proper training it is very difficult to correct the situation afterward. Retraining is so much more difficult than training right in the first place. After the conversations, I know that they were probably talking about me. For some reason people think of me as only wanting speed and fast dogs; yes, I do like fast dogs and I like to win but they are completely missing the point. Safety of the dog is the most important thing in my mind and dogs like the one that I witnessed are doing serious harm to themselves by doing this. This verges on cruelty. Larry Thanks for your comment Pete and it sounds like we’ve had very similar experiences. I too left my first team for much the same reasons as you have stated. But the team that I was on has since changed some of their training methods and has gotten a lot better.

I witnessed something at a tournament with a different team just a couple months ago that really made me cringe. Here is this very nice young extremely fast Border Collie running down to the box and just smashing headlong into it. It was hurting me just watching this and every time he would hit the box I would just gasp and wince. The whole back half of his body was coming completely off the mat every time he hit the box, a real face plant. After the race I went up to the person and told them that they were going to cause serious injury to their dog if they continued to run the dog without teach him a proper box turn. The team owner joined the conversation and said that they are trying to teach the dog and are working on the problem.

People just don’t get it. If a dog starts hitting the box without proper training it is very difficult to correct the situation afterward. Retraining is so much more difficult than training right in the first place. After the conversations, I know that they were probably talking about me. For some reason people think of me as only wanting speed and fast dogs; yes, I do like fast dogs and I like to win but they are completely missing the point. Safety of the dog is the most important thing in my mind and dogs like the one that I witnessed are doing serious harm to themselves by doing this. This verges on cruelty.

Larry

]]> By: Pete http://www.flyballblog.com/when-philosophies-collide/comment-page-1/#comment-20 Pete Fri, 20 Jul 2007 06:57:05 +0000 http://www.flyballblog.com/flyball/#comment-20 Oh, I forgot to mention I agree wholeheartedly with Kristie, and am guessing that Cynthia's observations depend to a large extent on the region you compete in.. Oh, I forgot to mention I agree wholeheartedly with Kristie, and am guessing that Cynthia’s observations depend to a large extent on the region you compete in..

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